America Looks Inward: to Self-Realization, to Reincarnation, to Inner Guides ā Program 3
By: Sri Darwin Gross, Tal Brooke; ©1988 |
How can you know if a mystical experience is real? Can they be real, but dangerous? |
Contents
Evaluating Mystical Experiences
Introduction
Tonight, John Ankerberg will interview a man who claims to be a Living Master, that is, one who supposedly has reached the highest level of spiritual attainment. Johnās guest is Sri Darwin Gross, the former leader of the religious group called Eckankar. At one time, three million people supposedly received wisdom through him from spirit beings called The Ascended Masters. He says his body is a unique vehicle which Godās essence uses. The man who is currently the Living Eck Master once said about Sri Darwin Gross:
Excerpt from previous program
- Dr. John Ankerberg: Okay, what does it mean to be a living Eck Master?
- Harold Klemp: He is the individual who, during contemplation the Eckists⦠we look to our inner, and many times we will see Sri Darwin Gross on the inner. And this is responsible for a number of healingsā¦.
- Ankerberg: What does it mean to see him? How do you see him?
- Klemp: Just as real as youāre sitting here, John, and myself and Debbie and Mike. We see him and we speak with himā¦.
- Ankerberg: Do you remember going out of your body and guiding and speaking to Harold Klemp inside of his inner space?
- Sri Darwin Gross: The majority of the time, negative. I do not. Iād have to become like Krishna ā a vegetable, have somebody take care of the body and feed it if I were to observe what Iām doing in other bodies constantly. Iām like no one else here in this audience.
- Ankerberg: But actually God invades your body and works through you. Do you know that Heās working through you?
- Gross: Oh yes.
As a Living Master Darwin claims that he is in contact with and is guided by nine spirit beings, who call themselves the Ascended Masters.
- Gross: When I was confronted by the nine silent ones and when Paul Twitchell confronted me withā¦.
- Ankerberg: The Ascended Masters?
- Gross: The Masters, the Vairagi Masters. I could have said, āNo,ā but I chose to say āYes.ā
Ankerberg: Youāve got to counsel with them in the spirit world?
- Gross: Yes. In Soul.
Johnās second guest is Tal Brooke, once part of the inner circle of Indiaās most powerful miracle-working guru, Sai Baba. One day Tal realized he was being deceived by Sai Baba and the evil spirit beings behind him. In desperation he cried out to Jesus Christ to rescue him, forgive him, and become his only savior and lord. In a tremendous demonstration of power ā more overwhelming than anything he had ever experienced under Sai Baba ā Jesus Christ immediately freed him. Tonight, are millions of Americans being deceived through mystical encounters with Living Masters? We invite you to join us for this weekās edition of John Ankerberg.
Program 3
- Ankerberg: Welcome! Weāre glad that youāve joined us. Weāre talking about the mystical experiences that people like Shirley MacLaine and other people that are on television, making movies today, are talking about. Are they for real? Is it all itās cracked up to be? And my guest tonight, Sri Darwin Gross, is the 972nd Living Eck Master of the group called Eckankar. Eckankar is a spiritual organization that says that they have the oldest path to God thatās known to man.
- Second, my guest is Mr. Tal Brooke, who was the assistant to Sai Baba, one of the strongest, most powerful gurus in India, that had hundreds of thousands of people that came into his presence to see the miraculous done. And he claimed to be the God-man. And he could give them that which they needed.
- But Iād like to get down to, what happens, fellows, to the people that donāt start out with god-consciousness; do not start out with the mystical experiences, but they want it? What do they have to embrace? That āAll is Oneā?
- Brooke: I had an experience before going to India that was very similar to this, and this is not uncommon in studying Eastern occult paths that there is a consciousness expansion. It seems to be experience. Right now Iāll tell you that itās like confusing foolās gold with real gold or saccharin with real sugar. It is an experience. And thereās something we need to deal with about experience.
- Now, what happened with me is that on a full course of LSD in the Virginia countryside I went through what seemed to be a tunnel of light and seemed to recall all my archetypal names and became like every character in a Shakespearian play. It was a very Lucasā āStar Warsā type of experience in which I thought I became God. And I will tell you in retrospect it was more like the serpent in the Genesis garden. You know, we talked about an IQ of 500,000 doing a number on me. Let me tell you! But it was enough to propel me to India with a tremendous zeal. Because it was a very, it seemed, pleasurable experience. And let me also say that people who first inject heroin into their veins have a very pleasurable experience.
- Now, by experience alone I was catapulted on a spiritual search in which I went all over India and met a number of self-proclaimed masters. My belief then as I read in the different books of the gurus, like Rama Krishna and Vivekananda and Kirpal Singh and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and then the Indian scriptures like the Upanishads, hereās whatās happening. Itās a figure-ground reversal of the Genesis 3 lie. Let me explain this one, and then weāre going to go on. In the Genesis 3 account, basically Satan promises godhood to man. That caused the fall. Thatās the sin. In the Eastern way of thinking, the sin is to think youāre not God. Okay, do we have that one clearly? Itās the other way around.
- Now, hereās what the Eastern path requires. Itās an attempt to break you out of your supposed amnesia that youāre just a human ego, just a man, and not God, so there are any number of yoga paths like Subud yoga, Kriya yoga, Kundalini yoga, etc., etc., etc. ā there are a lot of them ā that supposedly break the delusion of the person so that he can understand that heās one with God again. My question is, is he not getting into a deeper delusion? Okay. I had a very powerful experience. But Iāve learned that if you make experience your sole key, youāre going to get deceived because the devil is known as the great deceiver, and the truth is thisā¦.
- Ankerberg: Okay. But right in that area, Darwin raised a good question. Okay, you have Scriptures saying that Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
- Brooke: As an angel of light.
- Ankerberg: And his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. [2 Cor. 11:14-15] In Timothy Paul tells us that in the later times that some will follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. [1 Tim. 4:1] Now, obviously thatās either true or itās a lie. Letās talk, if itās true, are you saying then that what you experienced, what other people are experiencing was caused by the demonic that were taking advantage of your opening yourself up and were programming you to think in a specific way, which is basically the same pattern as going right across the boards with these mystical experiences?
- Brooke: Yes. This is what happened to me. I reached a crisis point. I was under a guy who basically materialized different things, read minds, did all kinds of things, supposedly healed, and I had a crisis point. Hereās what I had to deal with. I had my own series of experiences that seemed to validate this way of thinking, which is now the basis of the New Age Movement. āYouāre basically God; youāre in amnesia; youād better find out your divinity.ā I had spent a number of years in India and before that, and being validated by different masters ā Sai Baba ā as a very high adept, ready to be a master. And then something happened where I felt, āUh-oh! Thereās something thatās trying to possess me.ā
- Now, I found out something very demonic about this miracle-working guru, so hereās what I did. I went up on a hill in South India, I looked down at his prayer hall. He claims full deity. I sort of gave the God of the Bible one last chance. I said, āYou know, if youāre real, now would be a good time to speak to me.ā I did Russian roulette with the Bible and I flipped it open and I said, āYou better talk to me now because I canāt explain ā how do you explain someone who claims to be God and does miracles?ā And Matthew 24:24 is what my eyes hit and it said, āAnd there shall come false prophets and antichrists working great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the very elect of God.ā Okay?
- When I did call Christ into my life, that experience was more powerful than the initial LSD thing, but I learned something else as well; and that is that the powers of evil through deception wanted to take over my life fully. The word is ādemon possession.ā There are accounts in the Bible of exorcisms of demons, the greatest being Legion, and with one word Christ drove them out. And the physical sign that they were driven out was that they went into a herd of swine which charged right over the cliff and drowned in the lake. [Mark 5] So, there are demons, there are powers of evil. For years I ridiculed this. I didnāt want it to be. It seemed so āunevolved.ā But the deeper you get into this stuff, thereās some things on the other side, entities, that want to take you over for good.
- Ankerberg: Okay, weāve got to take a break here and then weāve got to give Darwin a chance to talk. And, Darwin, maybe you can respond to what we have just said here. But, also, what Iād also like you to pick up is that you have warned your students about having bad experiences and Iād like to hear a little bit more about that, why it is that you did thatā¦
- Gross: Certainly.
- Ankerberg: ā¦as well as, answer the question, if you would when we come back, of why it is that people that are having these mystical experiences all seem to be coming up with the same kind of philosophical worldview. Okay? And weāll come right back and tackle that when we get right back.
- Ankerberg: Okay, weāre back, and to start this off, Shirley MacLaine in her autobiography said this about becoming āone with the All.ā This started her off. Each person that seems to get into the mystical experiences has this kind of experience. Maybe, Darwin, you can see if this relates to something youāve had as well. She said, āMy whole body seemed to float, too. Not only my arms, but all of me. Slowly, slowly I became the water, and each tingling bubble was a component part of the water. I felt the interconnection of my breathing with the pulse of the energy around me. The air itself seemed to pulsate. In fact, I was the air, I was the air, the water, the darkness, the walls, the bubbles, the candle, the wet rocks under the water, and even the sound of the rushing river outside.ā I canāt tell you how many accounts just like this Iāve read, even in Paul Twitchell, in your books, in other people. Why is it that youāre having and many people are having these kinds of experiences that gives you this unity feeling?
- Gross: Iām not having those experiences.
- Ankerberg: Did you ever have one?
- Gross: Many years ago. Now, the quote I believe that you read, Tal, was out of The Tigerās Fang which was Paul Twitchellās experience.
- Brooke: Absolutely right.
- Gross: Which coincides to some degree with your experience. Now, Paul Twitchell, and I believe it was Julian Johnson, both in their writings said, āThis is not my work.ā Paul ā to not defend him but to clean the record a little bit or clear it ā I believe in the Eckankar: Key to Secret Worlds he stated that it was part of his mission to go through all sorts of paths and learn what he could in order to bring out, and attempt to bring out the message of Eck.
- Now, ECKANKAR, in capital letters, is a corporation. Iām not affiliated with it. Iām affiliated with the religious part of the teaching and itās a one-on-one sort of way. I donāt have an organization. I sustain myself through my books and whatever lectures I do throughout the world.
- The individual, if they havenāt gained certain experiences, for instance the Christian, is going to rely upon Jesus when they go across and leave this earthly plane. I wanted to know for myself. I wanted to walk on water, and do the things that some of these great mystics, saints and saviors have done. I started seeking within myself because of what I heard as a child. The emotional factor of my motherās church and others ā my grandfather was a Baptist Mennonite-type preacher, and my father had his own way, which was a happy-go-lucky sort of way, but yet never made enemies; never owed a person. Iāve learned a tremendous amount through my teachers as well as my physical parents. And I believe every child, whether itās in a church, Christianity, or some religious teaching, for the first six years should get a good, firm spiritual foundation.
- Ankerberg: You had these experiences starting at three years of age, which is awfully young. And so youāve had ā what would you call them? Guides?
- Gross: Yes, I was going out and coming back, and anyone who dreams will know that theyāve been out of their body, whether they realize it or not. Thereās different levels. You have a dark area, a gray area, black and white, and you have full color. These are astral experiences, and this is where those mystical individuals that go into a trance, or channeling some entity from the past, itās only off the astral worlds. So maybe perhaps some of Satanās or the devils do work here.
- Ankerberg: Now you warn the students in your writings about the traps of Kal, which is in Eckankar the evil side of God; besides the philosophical problem of why God who, if He is all, would want to fool Himself at that point. Because pantheism states, āGod is all and all of God,ā so even the emanations ourselves are part of God. God is thinking through us but thatās blocked too by illusion. It gets a little technical there. But the fact is that then Eckankar tells us, and these other religions of the East tell us, that you also have these traps and so on that youāve got to break out of. Now, is there any reason why you think that God, as you see Him, does that?
- Gross: The only thing that we can take with us when we leave this plane of action or earthly world are the experiences and the knowledge that we have gained while here. So, itās purelyā¦.
- Ankerberg: Is that a choice, that thatās the only thing we can rely upon? I notice that in the writings that as they go through the different initiations that the second thing that the student is told to do is starting to surrender his mind to these experiences and not to think. First of all, youāve got to haveā¦..
- Gross: Not really.
- Ankerberg: Well, thatās what you say inā¦.
- Gross: You learn how to drop the mind. You go beyond it, and utilize Soul.
- Ankerberg: But isnāt that ārefusing to thinkā? Why is it that youāre warning the students not to think and just to experience?
- Gross: No, the individual must be responsible, totally responsible, for their actions as well as their thoughts.
- Ankerberg: The first step in Eckankar is that you have to have the initiation. Thereās got to be a contact with a spirit guide, a higher one, as you call it. Thereās got to be some guide/master that they pick up there.
- Gross: For certain people this is true. Others have reached a certain point on the spiritual ladder of life where they have not gotten out of their path or teaching that they are seeking within themselves. I have a number of people that have come to me in that light and who have worked from a lofty position, spiritually speaking.
- Ankerberg: According to the books you say that, āIn the fourth circle the initiate here understands that the mind is the enemy that must be overcome.ā Thatās a direct quote. āThought and intelligence only leads to unhappiness.ā And another quote, āFrom the time the initiate left the circle of the fourth initiation, he has been watched carefully by the adepts of Vairagi,ā many spirit guides that are watching over. And I get the idea here that the abandonment of the mind in this fourth step is the hallmark where these masters take notice. It seems like this person is open. I would assume from your point of view you would say, āTherefore that person is open, heās teachable.ā But isnāt that also dangerous at that point?
- Gross: The individual keeps an open mind, but yet is in control and understands, as Jesus put it, āYou reap what you sow;ā Emerson, ācompensation,ā etc.; or āaction/reaction,ā or āKarma,ā however one thinks of it. You must be responsible for your own thoughts and your own words, and you must develop the mind to a point, but itās a tool only.
- Ankerberg: Let me ask, with Sai Baba, was there a conditioning, a deadening of thought and just an opening to the experience?
- Brooke: Yeah, what happens from the biblical viewpointā¦. Let me just say this, if we are in the image of God, which the Bible says, [Gen. 1:26] then whatās happening is that certain things have to be severed. They would say to get into a higher stage of consciousness, you have to learn this surrender without any holding back. So intuition, sense of good and evil, many of the checks and balances we have, the intellect, are systematically severed. Thatās certainly true with Rajneesh. So there is a systematic pulling away of all the things I would say God gave us, the whole package of goods that God gave us.
- Gross: Not in Eckankar. Not in Eckankar.
- Brooke: I know that. Believe me, I know that. Trust me on that one.
- Gross: Yep.
- Brooke: And, you know, these things have been systematically cut so sometimes the follower is a little like someone whoās had a lobotomy. Would you say thatās true?
- Gross: Thatās correct. Yep.
- Brooke: So there are a number of lobotomized mystics running around. The Christian viewpoint is that man in the image of God has all these things to keep him coherent. Now, let me throw something out. The real criterion of judging experience in the Christian viewpoint ā and the Reformers really pointed this out in the 1600ās ā see, there are two things that are happening in life. Thereās a whole parcel of experiences in this hand, and thereās Godās revelation. What you learn in the Scripture, you have this revelation that judges experience because, frankly, my friends, thereās such a marketplace of divergent experiences that you can be all over the map. We could take an instant flight into the local loony bin! We could take an instant flight into the local ānut houseā and have experiences that are as wild as any astral travel.
- Gross: Right.
- Brooke: We could take a jet to India today and run into any number in the spiritual marketplace of experiences. Unimaginable things. And you see this happening with devotees and chelas. You asked me earlier about my experiences under Sai Baba. I had him astrally visit me. I had him appear in dreams. I saw his miracles. I saw different things happen. I went to that mountaintop and I did open the Bible and I did look at Matthew 24:24, and it said, āAnd there shall come false prophets who shall work great signs and wonders to deceive the elect.ā I looked through more of the biblical schema of watching reality and evaluating all things and I found out that there is indeed a way of interpreting all this stuff. There are really honestly powers of evil in the universe.
- Ankerberg: Next week weāre going to go into the fact, as an initiate, as a student in Eckankar goes up the ladder, he finally comes to a point where āhis responsibility is exceedingly greater and cannot be shirked. Members will not be permitted any shirking of responsibilities.ā And we want to talk about what happens if they do. And what happened to you, Tal, when you did? And we will talk about that next week, so please stick with us.