End-Time Events According to the Bible – Program 6

By: Dave Hunt, Hal Lindsey and Dr. David Breese; ©1992
The panel answers questions from the audience about end time events.


Questions and Answers


Leaders of the world wonder how President elect Bill Clinton will deal with the mounting foreign policy crises overseas. This month, a special meeting of the Russian Parliament has been called to decide whether Boris Yeltsin will be overthrown by hardliners frustrated with his rule. The German defense minister has warned America not to forget the turmoil in the former Soviet republic, three of which still have nuclear weapons on their soil. And in the Middle East, now that Baker and Bush are gone, what will happen to the Middle East peace talks between Israel and Jordan? Where are these events going to lead? Do they parallel the prophetic picture of history outlined in the Bible?

My three guests today are all best-selling authors and internationally known scholars on biblical prophecy. They are Hal Lindsey, Dr. David Breese and Dave Hunt. We invite you to join us.

Ankerberg: Welcome! We’re here in Kansas City with three biblical scholars talking about the Bible and prophecy and current world events: Dr. David Breese, Hal Lindsey and Dave Hunt. And, gentlemen, tonight we’ve got questions that many folks that are in our viewing audience as well as that are right here want to ask you about biblical prophecy. Let’s have the first question.
Audience: This is for Hal. How do you answer your critics who say that your scenario as presented in The Late Great Planet Earth has failed?
Lindsey: Well, I simply say, Where? Where has it failed? I simply see things coming together very, very rapidly. You know, I don’t pretend to be an Old Testament prophet. I don’t know every fine point and every detail of history that’s going to happen. But I know, in the broad details of the scenario, I would say it’s all happening right now. Israel is in the land at the focus of world attention. Europe is uniting. And I believe out of that union will come 10 strong nations that will fulfill what Daniel and Revelation have predicted.
There is a tremendous military power still in the Russian confederacy, the Russian republic. The kings of the East, such as China, Japan, India, they’re all coming together as a mighty military power block.
All of the birth pangs we’ve been talking about in previous programs are increasing in frequency and intensity just like birth pangs in a woman. The increase in wars, apostasy in religion, the increase in plagues, earthquakes, famine and so forth. And so it’s all happening.
Audience: There’s a great controversy in Korea over date setting. They’ve pulled some of your books off the shelves and other prophecy teachers. Would you tell us what that controversy is and what your opinion of it is?
Lindsey: Well, this is the first time I’ve been called a heretic because I didn’t name a date. But right now in Korea, Yonggi Cho and other Korean leaders have said that Christ is coming on I believe it’s the Feast of Trumpets this year. And every book on every shelf in the Christian bookstores in Korea that doesn’t agree with that has been pulled out, and, of course, mine was pulled out too.
Ankerberg: Let’s make it clear that you’re the one that does not set a date and why.
Lindsey: Well, I don’t set a date because I believe that the Bible absolutely says that we will not know a specific day or hour. In the same context it commands us to know the general time, the generation, but it says we can’t know the specific time of the day or the hour.
Audience: Mr. Lindsey, I’ve got some questions on the woman that overcomes the beast and then there’s mention of her giving birth to a child, how do you interpret that in Revelation?
Lindsey: Revelation 12?
Audience: Yes.
Lindsey: About the woman with the child.
Audience: My interpretation was that she was supposed to have knowledge of overcoming the beast and then give birth to a child that went to heaven or something?
Lindsey: Okay, in that chapter you have a panoramic view of Israel. And the whole purpose of that chapter is to show the mystery of anti-Semitism and what’s behind it. The woman is Israel. And she is pictured as having a Man-Child – that’s Jesus Christ. And the serpent and the dragon is identified. Revelation 12:9. He is identified as Satan. He tries to kill the child when He’s born, and yet the child is snatched up to heaven and so forth. And it talks about the continuous effort of Satan to destroy the woman, which is Israel. So it’s a picture of Israel’s persecution down through the ages and why.
Audience: My comment is to Dave Hunt. In Daniel 7:24, there’s ten nations that Daniel says and then there will be another nation or “little horn.” And the 11th nation picked in the EC was Spain. We’ve seen all the nations come together in Barcelona. And one of the big signs that I saw was there was a serpent, the head of a serpent, on top of this ship that first came out and it was like a serpent’s head that was like at the beginning of the ceremonies. And the king of Spain, you know, he prayed with Israel not too long ago, prayed with the President of Israel. Do you think maybe the Antichrist could come out of Spain?
Hunt: I don’t know where the Antichrist will come from. He will be, as I think Hal or Dave, one of them quoted already in Daniel 9:27, “The people of the prince who will come shall destroy the sanctuary and the city.” That’s the prince, the pretender. In the verse before it talks about the coming of Messiah, the Prince. That’s Christ. “The prince who will come” is the pseudo-Christ, the Antichrist, and his people will destroy the sanctuary and the city; of course, it was Rome, as Hal said, the “armies of Titus,” so his people are the revived Roman Empire. The people of the Roman Empire will be his people. Under him he will rule over them. More than that, I can’t get into the details as to exactly what country he will come from and so forth.
As far as the 11th nation, I’m not as precise as my colleagues up here. I believe that we’re talking about a world-wide empire. It was 20 years ago I think that the Club of Rome divided the world into ten regions. You talk to computer experts or banking experts, the world right now is divided into ten regions for various purposes. Bush during the Gulf War talked about, “We need to have regional security councils.” I think there will be ten regions. Now, Hal was talking about ten nations of Western Europe. Exactly what this means ultimately, it’s in the days of those kings, Daniel 2:44, those ten toes, whatever exactly that means ultimately, there will be a revived Roman Empire under ten heads and it says specifically, “In the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom that will not be destroyed.” And one of the purposes of Jesus returning to this earth is to destroy the Antichrist. So, you know, the Second Coming doesn’t take place until the Antichrist is here. But the rapture takes place before that, otherwise we’d be looking for the Antichrist instead of for Christ. But it tells us we’re looking for Christ. First, we’re taken out; then the Antichrist comes. Under 10 heads he rules this world and he is going to be destroyed by Christ at His Second Coming.
Ankerberg: Before we have this question, let me ask you a question. There’s a lot of folks in the Church that believe that Israel doesn’t play any part in the end times scenario and that really, when Israel rejected their Messiah, the promises of Israel were transferred over to the Church and so now all that we have said in these programs about Israel doesn’t count; doesn’t matter. Why is that a false idea, as far as you’re concerned?
Hunt: John, it’s not only false, it’s ludicrous, just to be blunt about it. I notice that these people who want to take the promises of Israel to the Church, they let Israel still have the curses, you know. Why don’t they take the whole thing?
Furthermore, the promises to Israel were that she would be scattered around the world and brought back to her land. I mean, is the whole Church going to be brought back to the land of Israel? No, the Jews have been brought back to the land of Israel. It is very clear in Acts 1:6. The disciples asked Jesus, “Lord, wilt thou…” – let me paraphrase in the way some of the people would put it today, “Lord, is it time for us to restore the kingdom to the Church?” No. They said, “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” That would have been the perfect time for Jesus to say, “Hey, wait a minute, guys. Israel is finished. The kingdom doesn’t pertain to them at all.” He simply said, “It’s not for you to know the times or the seasons.”
And then in Acts 3 when Peter preaches his second sermon, beginning with verse 20 he says, “Whom the heavens must receive until the time for restoration of all things has come.” You have a gentleman out there, Earl Paulk, who wrote a book entitled, Held in the Heavens Until, and he said, “You see, Christ is held in the heavens until we’ve restored everything.” Wait a minute! It says, No, “whom the heavens must receive [until what?] until the time for the restoration of all things.” When it is time for everything to be restored, the disciples said, “Lord, wilt thou.” He who alone can restore this kingdom will return and we will return with Him in our resurrected, glorified bodies to restore the kingdom to Israel, not to the Church.
Ankerberg: Well, Daniel 2 also says, God is going to be the One that establishes the kingdom “in the days of those kings….”
Hunt: Right.
Ankerberg: And “the days of those kings” is still before us and whenever that shows up and gets all put together, God says He’s going to do the establishing.
Breese: John, might we also mention that that very question is exactly the question that Paul deals with in Romans 11: “Has God cast away His people?” He says, “No,” for two reasons: 1) I’m an Israelite so the offer of salvation by grace goes to all the world now, including Israel; second, how can God cast away His people whom He foreknew, He said. God cannot foreknow something that will not happen. He is referring to the restoration of Israel. He says categorically that’s not true. But by the way, the identification of the church with Israel is the theological anomaly, the damaging point of view, that is coming upon so much of Christianity today. It’s causing tremendous spiritual confusion. So I hope we have that straight tonight.
Ankerberg: Add something to it. Add something to it. What else stands out in your mind why that can’t be a true position that Israel is now the Church?
Lindsey: Well, you have to go into allegorical alchemy to come up with that. Because you absolutely, you absolutely cannot read the Scripture and take it at face value and say that God’s going to reject His people.
Ankerberg: Give us an example.
Lindsey: Well, one that Dave talked about earlier, Jeremiah 31, this is right after the giving of the New Covenant that he predicts will come. It says, “Thus says the Lord, who gave the sun for light by day, [the fixed order] of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so its waves roar. The Lord of Hosts is His name. ‘If this fixed order departs from before Me,’ declares the Lord, ‘then the offspring of Israel shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever!’” [Jer. 31:35-36] Then if we didn’t get the point, then He repeats it. “Thus says the Lord, ‘If the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel because of all that they have done,’ declares the Lord.” [Jer. 31:37] So this shows He anticipated they would gravely sin, “because of what they have done.” But He said, “I will not do it for anything they have done,” and as long as I see the moon come up at night and the sun come up every morning, God says Israel will never cease and He talks specifically about the offspring of Israel and about them remaining a special nation before Him. Romans 9 says Israel in the past was elected. Romans 10 says Israel in the present is rejected and why. Romans 11 says Israel in the future is accepted forever.
Hunt: Can I just add a little to that?
Ankerberg: Certainly.
Hunt: This is so important, because if you confuse Israel and the Church you’re just messed up on all of prophecy. And let me give you one of the verses from which this idea comes. Romans, 2:28-29: “For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart and spirit and not in the letter whose praise is not of man but of God’s.” So they say, “You see, the Church is spiritual Israel and we’re the spiritual seed of Abraham.” Well, in a sense that’s true; but the next verse, Romans 3:1, begins, “What advantage, then, hath the Jew?”…
Lindsey: “Much in every way…”
Hunt: And it says “much in every way,” chiefly because “unto them were committed the oracles of God.” Hey, there is a national Israel. These people have special promises. They rejected God and they will not be in their land until they believe on the Messiah. They will not inherit the promises that God gave to Abraham ultimately until they have that relationship with God that Abraham had.
But to carry it on, in Romans 9:3 he says, “For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to the flesh.” He’s not talking about the Church. He says, “Who are Israelites to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law” and so forth, “whose were the fathers as to whom concerning the flesh Christ came.
Ephesians 2 makes it very clear. You Gentiles were without hope. You were strangers, aliens from the covenant of promise, without hope, without God in the world. It didn’t pertain to you at all. In chapter 10 he begins, he says, “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved.”
Hey, let’s substitute “Church” for “Israel.” “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Church is they might be saved.” You’re not in the Church unless you’re saved. He’s obviously talking about somebody else. You cannot put together Israel and the Church. They’re two separate entities.
Ankerberg: Thank you. Let’s get to our question.
Audience: I’ll address this to Dr. Breese. Various articles and books have recently stated that major events associated with Christ occurred on Jewish feast days. Christ’s death on Passover, burial on Feast of Unleavened Bread, Resurrection on the Feast of First Fruits, and finally, the sending of the Holy Spirit on the Feast of Pentecost. It is then stated that the next feast would be the Harvest or the Feast of Trumpets and that the gathering of the Body of Christ to meet Him in the clouds, better known as the rapture, would occur at this time in the future. Would you please comment on this and what Scripture says about it?
Ankerberg: A lot of people are expecting the Lord to show up on that date.
Breese: The question is very relevant because we’ve been through about a five-year period in which there have been quite a few dates that have been suggested and then next one, by the way, is a week from Tuesday, so we should be set for that.
I think this needs to be said: I listen with great interest to those who are convinced that there will be at the day of the rapture, that will be a day corresponding with one of the notable feast days of the Old Testament, but there is no justification for this point of view because God’s dealings with the Church really are entirely separate from God’s dealings with the nation of Israel. So the simple answer is, May Christ come on Rosh Hashanah? Yes, He may. But He might come before or He might come afterwards. God is not committed to any human construct that dictates the time of His coming.
Maybe one other thing ought to be said, too, and that is that the event of the return of Christ is inevitable but the timing is not inevitable as of now. We can prove that. Jonah was sent to the city of Nineveh and he was told by God, “You tell that city it’s going to be destroyed in 40 days.” [Jonah 1, 3] And Jonah got there by a circuitous route, by the way, but he preached then for 40 days to Nineveh: “This city is going to be destroyed.” Went outside the city. When his 40 days were up and said, “Okay, I’ve told them, Lord, now let them have it!” And nothing happened. And Jonah was very chagrined and in the last chapter of the book of Jonah God had to deal with Jonah and teach him that His primary will was the salvation of that city and that the time of His judgment therefore could be made relative along a time-line even though the event was absolute.
Even so now, the Bible says “God is not slack concerning His promise as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night” and so on. [2 Pet. 3:9-10] It is not impossible that God keeping an eye on, let’s say, the potential of the Church and sees within us yet great possibilities for global evangelism. In my opinion, it would be prudent, wise and even expeditious for God to move an assumed day of His coming to a little bit later in order that others might be saved. God weeps over the lost, “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” So the fact of the return of Christ is absolute; the day can be conditioned by convictions in the mind of God up until this very hour.
Audience: Yes, first I’d like to say that it’s an honor to participate in this show with John Ankerberg and be with three knowledgeable gentlemen there. My question is to Dr. Dave Breese. Where does the United States fit in during the end-times as far as Bible prophecy? Is the United States to suffer any destruction or is the Bible clear on this issue?
Breese: A good question and particularly relevant to us because this happens to be the heartland of the United States. Well, in my opinion there are perhaps three possibilities, maybe four. We do have in Ezekiel 38 the account of the attempt by the Prince of Rosh to conquer the Middle East, and I’ve said earlier today it takes two things to produce aggressive war: 1) a desirable prize. What might be the desirable prize? That’s worth thinking about but that’s not the question. Secondly, the presumed absence of effective resistance. You don’t go to war if you know you’re going to die in the process, you go because you think you could win. Now, the Russians know they could not win a battle for the Middle East if they had to face a well-developed American army and counterstroke such as was the case with Desert Storm. So in my opinion, they’ve got to be sure that that force will not be there; therefore, I think it not impossible that with their plethora of nuclear weapons they may take a shot at the United States, take America out, perhaps partially destroyed, perhaps demoralized. So one possibility is that America may be attacked or destroyed.
Second possibility, nuclear blackmail.
Third possibility is simply that America may have been reduced to a paper tiger. Look what’s going on in America today in all the dreadful iniquitous subversions taking place here. America may be just out of it by its own way. But my answer is that the argument for America’s involvement in the last contests of the world is not an easy one to prove. I think that America may be out of action at that time.
Ankerberg: Dave, you also ought to add a word there in terms of the rapture.
Hunt: Oh yes, indeed. I wouldn’t miss that. The rapture would have a far more profound effect in America than in any other nation of the world. Why? It will take out our leadership class. There are 50 million people in America who profess to be Christians. I’m not passing on whether they are or not, but a very high percentage of America by comparison to other nations professes to know Christ. The rapture could take the very leadership capability out of America and many other things, thereby reducing America to simply the fragments that remain of a quasi religiosity that never was really true.
Audience: This question is for Mr. Lindsey. My wife and daughter and I are eagerly awaiting a rapture of this generation. What does the Bible say about how long a generation can be?
Lindsey: Well, you know, I think that God has kept this relative for good reason. In Genesis 15, I believe it is, God tells Abraham that He is going to put his people in a strange land for 400 years and then He says in the fourth generation I will deliver you and bring you back here. So there it was 100 years. The most common length of time is 40 years. And so that could well be that. The question is, when does it start?
I put a lot of “ifs” about my statement in The Late Great Planet Earth. I said, “If the foundation of the state of Israel is the beginning of the generation and if a generation is 40 years, then He could come at the end of that length of time.”
But you could also just as easily be Jerusalem because Jerusalem is always more in the spotlight of prophecy than the state of Israel is. So it could have begun with the recapture of Jerusalem, June ‘67. But we don’t really know. I just believe that we’re in that generation, exactly when it began, when it ends I don’t know. But I think we’re right in the midst of it.
Ankerberg: Other comment?
Hunt: Could I give another possible scenario?
Ankerberg: Sure.
Hunt: I think you have three possibilities: You have the preterists who say when Jesus said, “This generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled” He was talking about the generation at that time. Within 40 years, AD 70, Israel was wiped out; the temple was destroyed; Nero was the Antichrist and so forth. Now, that’s obviously not true because it says a great tribulation such as never was nor ever shall be and we know there have been greater tribulations since then. A lot of other things in Matthew 24 that didn’t happen in AD 70, so we know that’s not the case.
Another possibility is the generation that sees, whether it’s Jerusalem or it’s Israel brought back to its land.
There’s a third possibility, which is the one that I personally have always held to. When Jesus said “this generation,” He talked about a disobedient, a rebellious, a gainsaying generation. And I think He was saying that Israel, the Jews, as a whole, will remain in unbelief and rebellion against God in rejection of their Messiah until all has been fulfilled. That is only at Armageddon, when He returns. Zechariah 12: “They will look on me whom they have pierced,” then they will believe. But that generation will continue up to that point. I think this is another possibility of the interpretation of that.
Audience: My question is for Hal Lindsey. Mr. Lindsey, on your program this week on TBN you had Robert Morey on, and he spoke of the persecution that the Christians are having in the Muslim countries. We know in China they are being persecuted horribly over there. And in the United States we’re losing Christian rights and do you see the United States, a Christian in the United States, being more persecuted before the rapture? Do you see very many of our rights being taken away more than there are now? Where do you see the Christian in the United States before the rapture? Are we going to suffer?
Lindsey: Okay, I see. Many people ask, “Will there be a real severe persecution before the coming of the Lord?” Well, obviously there are great persecutions in many places in the world. I believe we’re going to see some severe persecution here in the United States, though, in answer to your question. I see signs of it everywhere. Just this last week we had to deal with the cable companies, television companies. There’s a group called Vision which is made up of a bunch of liberal Christians who are well organized, well financed, and well staffed, they’re going around to the real gatekeeper of who gets on television today. It isn’t the FCC, it’s the cable companies. And so they’re going to the cable companies and seeking to offer them all kinds of incentives and offer all the liberal pastors in the area time on the air in order to take away the allotted time for religion and give it to somebody else other than the evangelical Christians. That’s just one way the persecution is starting. I see a hatred against Christians, the like of which I have never seen before and it’s growing.
Ankerberg: Dr. Breese, right along in that area in terms of the signs that indicate Christ’s coming is coming closer, you were talking about your analogy with Christmas and Thanksgiving. Why don’t you give that again.
Breese: Interesting. John Walvoord has mentioned this about the matter of the Second Coming of Christ and the rapture of the Church. The signs point to the Second Coming of Christ and those who discuss these things with us say, “Why do you talk about signs because there is no sign that necessarily precedes the rapture,” with which I agree. Well, the answer to that is, if Christmas is coming, Thanksgiving is coming even sooner. In other words, the signs that point to the coming, as it were, of a spiritual Christmas, the glorious return of Christ, become so abundant in our time that one of these days the likelihood continues to grow that our thinking will be interrupted by the rapture of the Church.
Ankerberg: Yeah, Dave Hunt, take just one of those in terms of if there’s going to be a false religion, there ought to be at least a kind of running start when we get close to that time period. What else would you say?
Hunt: I think there definitely will be a running start and as we’ve already talked about, a rejection of the idea of a rapture at all and an explanation for this sudden mass disappearance and we have these explanations already here. I think many churches are going to be more full after the rapture than they were before with people who still call themselves Christians, who still claim to be the followers of Christ, and who have been swept into this false Christianity by this whole ecumenical movement that is so rampant in the world today.
Audience: Dave Hunt, since we’re all still here evidently the rapture has not occurred, but we have that hope and we’re looking forward to it and Jesus said He would come to get us and He’s preparing the way. Over the past few weeks you have mentioned John 14. In John 14 what is the house and what are the mansions?
Hunt: Well, my father, who was a very godly man, came from what they called “the old country” in those days, from England, used to tell a story like this: The very wealthy lady arrived in heaven and she was being shown through the Beverly Hills of heaven and a particularly fantastic mansion. “Wow! Whose is that?” It turned out to be her maid’s house. And came to another one that was even bigger. “Wow, whose is that?” That’s her coachman’s house. And she thought, “Wow, what do I have?” And then they got kind of in the slums, if there is such a thing in heaven, and they came to this little shanty and it was so small she said, “Whose is that?” And Peter who was taking her through heaven said, “Well, that’s yours.” “Well, how come I’m in this little shack?” Well, Peter said, “Well, we can only build with the materials you send up here.”
I believe that Jesus is building mansions. They must be fantastic. It’s taken a long time. This is in His Father’s house in heaven. But there will be degrees of reward. Our salvation is secure, but there will be degrees of reward. Well, somebody says, “Some of us will have bigger cups than others but our cup will overflow.” I don’t think we’ll be jealous of one another and so forth, but it’s eternal dwelling places in the presence of His Father with Him forever. We will be with Him and like Him forever. Exactly what that means, I can’t say.
Audience: Dr. Breese this is for you. It’s prophesied that the dead in Christ shall rise when Jesus returns. Jesus also tells a sobbing mother that her daughter is but asleep. Does this all mean that the dead are but asleep until Jesus returns for all of us?
Breese: I think I understand the whole question. The answer is that the moment a person dies in this world, he is immediately in the presence of the Lord.
Hunt: If he’s a believer.
Breese: Correct. David said “if he is a believer.” That’s correct. A Christian, strictly speaking, does not die. The Bible says, “Christ hath abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel.” [2 Tim. 1:10] Jesus said, “Whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die,” [John 11:26] which, by the way, is the strongest expression about anything in the whole New Testament. What He actually said, is, “He shall not ever die forever and ever” if you are a believer in Jesus Christ.
So, the use of the word “sleep” is analogous to the appearance. It’s the language of appearance. Yes, a person who is dead, the soul, the spirit has left the body, that person appears to be asleep as one who may be sleeping normally in this world. But that’s only the image from this side. The other side is that “absent from the body is present with the Lord.” [2 Cor. 5:8] The apostle Paul said, “I have a desire to depart” and what? sleep for a millennium? No. “I have a desire to depart and be with Christ.” [Phil. 1:23] “We know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building of God and house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” [2 Cor. 5:1] And Paul said, “We desire to occupy that building of God.” [2 Cor. 5:2-4] Paul didn’t desire to die and sleep, he desired to be with Jesus Christ. So, the answer to the question is that the instant, if we are believers, that we die, we are with the Lord.
There are two ways that a believer may make it to heaven: one is via physical death, which is not the same if you are not a believer, of course. The other is by the rapture of the Church: “Behold, I show you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.” [1 Cor. 15:51]
Audience: Hal Lindsey, will there be another great war at the end of the Millennium?
Lindsey: Yes. Yes, there will be. It’s interesting that it says that Gog from the land of Magog will lead the last war, Revelation 20. Chuck Missler and I were working on The Magog Factor and we happened to look up some words in the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Just happened to look up the word “Gog” and found that in the Greek translation of the Old Testament there is a statement in one of the Old Testament books where it talks about Gog being the leader of a demon army and it says that Gog is one of the arch demons and it’s like this is some sort of a demon that apparently hangs around even till the end of the Millennium and that he is going to lead the last great war against God.
A lot of people ask, if the Millennium starts with only believers, how do you have such a rebellion at the end? That’s the key question. Well, these people have children and since they are in a perfect environment as far as nature is concerned for 1,000 years, Jesus Christ Himself is present, so they can’t say He doesn’t exist. He is there. He’s ruling. And since the world system will be controlled by Christ Himself, so it will not be a temptation, so there will be great means to keep the old sin nature in all of us down during that period. When God wants to bring out the rebellion that He sees in the hearts of these people that are unbelievers, He releases Satan in order to bring on the outside what He sees all the time. So Satan is allowed to bring out that rebellion that has been suppressed.
Audience: My question is for Dave Hunt. Can my unsaved loved ones be saved during the tribulation?
Hunt: If they have never heard the Gospel, they can be saved. In my opinion, anyone who has heard the Gospel and rejected it, understood it and rejected it, will not have another opportunity. The Bible says, 2 Thessalonians 2:11, “For this cause God will send them a strong delusion to believe the lie, all those who refuse to receive the love of the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
And I would say, you know, our audience right here or out there watching on TV, if suddenly everybody in this room vanished and you’re the only one left, I don’t care if you memorized The Late Great Planet Earth from beginning to end, you know the book of Daniel and Revelation by heart, if you’ve rejected Christ, I don’t think you would think it is the rapture. I believe you will be given a strong delusion to believe a lie.
But there will be many people who have never heard the Gospel, certainly never understood it, and I think they will have an opportunity during the great tribulation to come to Christ; however, it’s a horrible time to do it because they’re going to pay for it with their blood because they will not take the mark of the Beast, they will not bow down and worship his image, and they will be slain. You read of a great company of martyrs that have come out of the great tribulation.
Audience: This is for Dr. Breese. Since Israel is still looking for their Messiah, doesn’t the Antichrist have to be Jewish and from the house of David? I think also in Daniel it talks about that he “will not worship the God of his fathers” [Dan. 11:38], which would allude that he would be Jewish.
Breese: First of all, let me say that since Israel is still looking for its Messiah, I wish that were true in an overwhelming sense. Yes, there is a spirit of anticipation in the nation of Israel, but God has brought Israel back in unbelief and so you do not have an overwhelming motivation in Israel but rather a witness within it, and overwhelming motivation to look for the Messiah.
But the real question is, “Doesn’t the Messiah have to be Jewish?” The suggestion that he is Jewish is the statement that’s made in Daniel 11 that “he forsakes the God of his fathers,” indicating that he is a religious individual and then the suggestion built on logic, perhaps logic, that they will be more ready to receive him if he is, in fact, Jewish. I have listened with interest to these arguments but they are not quite convincing to me, because the Antichrist must come out of a 10-nation complex which is a revived Roman Empire, and therefore I think it is a possible construct within Scripture that he can be any one of those European nationalities.
So to give you a definite “maybe” on the Antichrist being Jewish. However, I think that the greater likelihood is perhaps that the False Prophet, who is the assistant of the Antichrist, will, in fact, be Jewish, although I wouldn’t put my hand in the fire for that proposition. But I think that the likelihood is a little stronger there.
Hunt: In John 5 Jesus said, “I am come in my Father’s name and you received me not.” [John 5:43] He came with all the credentials. He is Jehovah. He is One with the Father. “Unto us a child is born. Unto us a Son is given. The government will be upon his shoulders. His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father.” [Isa. 9:6] That’s who came. “Another will come in his own name [in the name of self, in the name of man], him you will receive,” Jesus said. [John 5:43] That, to me, would indicate he doesn’t have to be of the lineage of David, you know, he doesn’t have to have these credentials that the Word of God indicates.
And if you go to Israel, go to Ben Yehuda Street in the evening, and stick a mic in front of any of these young people and say, “Are you expecting the Messiah?” “Yeah.” “How will you recognize him?” You know what they will say. “Oh, he will bring peace.” They are waiting for the man of peace who will set up a false peace and who “through peace will destroy many.” I don’t think he has to be a Jew.
Audience: Mr. Lindsey, with all the wars and murders and abortions and homosexuality, do you feel that towards the rapture time that the Holy Spirit will gradually be taken out of the way instead of with the believer going last instead of all of a sudden?
Lindsey: I believe that the Lord is gradually removing the restraint. He warned that “in the last days, perilous times would come.” [2 Tim. 3:1] The Lord is still here. In other words, the Holy Spirit doesn’t gradually leave. He’s a person. But I believe the Lord did warn that His restraint would be gradually withdrawn. So there is sort of a phasing out. Certainly, in order for the world to get in the condition that many prophecies talk about – people having doctrines of demons, perilous times, apostasy growing, and so forth – the Holy Spirit would have to remove His restraint.
Audience: Mr. Hunt, how do you equate the 1917 Marian prophecies in Fatima, Portugal about the end-time conversion of Russia to the collapse of Communism in the Soviet Union which occurred on Christmas Day last year?
Hunt: Well, that probably blew right by most people. May 13, 1917 “Our Lady of Fatima” first appeared in a little town of Fatima in Portugal and made the prediction that if the world would be devoted, dedicated to her immaculate heart, she would convert Russia and stop Communism and so forth. Now, there’s controversy in the Catholic Church, in fact, the Popes never really did what “Our Lady of Fatima” supposedly said they must do. Although John Paul, who believes that “Our Lady of Fatima” saved his life and appeared to him during his recovery from the assassination, gave him a mission and will give the world a sign, which will cause the whole world to bow down to his supreme spiritual authority.
It’s rather interesting, in 1952 Fulton J. Sheen wrote a book. You know, you wonder, what will cause the Muslims to join in this? But he said, “The Muslims will be converted, but not in the way that you think, but through Our Lady.” He said, “Isn’t it amazing that she chose to appear in the town of Fatima because you know it was named Fatima when the Muslims were in control of Portugal and controlled most of the earth and Fatima, he says, was Muhammad’s favorite daughter and Muhammad said, “Thou, O Fatima, among all the women in heaven art the chiefest of women next to Our Lady,” the Virgin Mary. And he said, “It’s going to be through her that this world will be converted.” I would submit that that might not be too far from the truth.
Audience: Dr. Breese, do you feel that the increase of signs and wonders together with the mysticism infiltrating the Church today could somehow be laying the groundwork for the one world religion of the Antichrist and if so, how?
Breese: Yeah, very good. One of the characteristics of the religion of the Antichrist will be phenomenalism, and that is that he can call down fire from heaven in the sight of the beast and in the sight of onlooking multitudes. They will be astonished; it will be a stunning presentation and very convincing to people who are otherwise spiritually vacuous – they have nothing to believe. They see this; they’re quite overwhelmed by it. So that there will be, the Scripture very categorically says, the use of signs and wonders by the Antichrist, power, signs, lying wonders, the Scripture says. [2 Thess. 2:9] So those will be present. So my answer to your question is, “Yes.”
I think any disposition on the part of anybody who wants his faith to be strengthened to believe that faith is strengthened by the presence of something they might call miracles, signs, lying wonders, that that produces a spiritual weakness that can make them vulnerable to the pitch of the False Prophet at the end of the age. What is the sign? What is the miracle that eternally proves Christianity? Answer: Romans 1:4. “Jesus Christ was declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead.” Believe that and you have everlasting life and God is not obligated to show you one other phenomena in all of life until the return of Christ. He rests his case on the resurrection of Christ.
So I would recommend to anyone, don’t go chasing some inferior phenomena, some spiritual doo-dad, that you think may strengthen your faith. “We look not at the things which are seen but the things which are not seen. The things which are seen are temporal; the things which are not seen are eternal.” [2 cor. 4:18] Learn to believe in Him who is invisible and don’t necessarily expect a phenomenalistic confirmation of that until you see Him face to face.
Ankerberg: Okay, this one and one more.
Audience: This is for all of you. How would you explain the mysterious circles that are appearing in fields all over the world?
Breese: Some kids went out with a lawnmower and a helicopter and did the whole thing. That’s my answer. It’s a phony.
Ankerberg: It’s been on the news that it was a deliberate fake.
Audience: Dr. David Breese: God says in reference to Babylon, “Come out of her, my people, and be not partakers of her plagues.” [Rev. 18:4] In reference to our time period, who is Babylon and if you come out of Babylon, where do you go?
Breese: Babylon is several things. First of all, and most of all, Babylon is an ideology. At the Tower of Babel the people said two things: “Let us make us a name. Let us build a stairway to reach up to heaven.” So it’s the ideology of that you can have culture without the Lord and religion without God. It’s a godless culture and a godless religion. They said so. That was their philosophy. Well, so Babylon is first of all an ideology.
Secondly, Babylon was a city, the city Babylon.
Thirdly, Babylon was an empire, Babylonia.
But fourthly, Babylon is a spirit that will embody itself in a religious and social construct at the end of the age. The description of the destruction of Babylon, Revelation 17, is interesting and that is spiritual Babylon presented as a prostitute who is drunk with the blood of the martyrs and of the saints of the Lord Jesus. It’s a terrible thing, that last world religion, and notice that at the end of Revelation 17, that bogus religion is destroyed, not by God but destroyed by the irate rulers of the world. The leaders of these kingdoms, they turn on this woman riding the beast and they kill her. Finally, the world will become so aware that it has been sold a false thing in this religious Babylon, that the world destroys religious Babylon. Then, of course, Revelation 18 is the destruction of commercial Babylon. It’s almost like a shopping list, and all of it is gone in one hour like that.
So I think that the best thing to do is to hold that Babylon is those two principles: religion without God and culture without the Lord, which will be destroyed at the end of the age. If you leave Babylon now and go to something else, what should you go to? The answer is, “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden. I will give you rest,” said Jesus Christ. [Matt. 11:28] “Hold e’er this truth before your eyes that all the world is lies and lies.” There’s nothing there. You’ve got to come to Christ and you get out of Babylon and have the hope of eternal life.
Ankerberg: Gentlemen, tonight I want to say “Thank you” on behalf of our audience for all of these programs and we hope that you’ll come back again.


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