Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses Convention – Program 1

By: Dr. John Ankerberg, Joan Cetnar, Duane Magnani, Lorri MacGregor, David Reed; ©1999

How do Jehovah’s Witnesses use “theocratic war strategy,” and what does it mean, particularly in legal matters such as child custody battles?

Introduction

Today on the John Ankerberg Show, you will meet four former Jehovah’s Witnesses who will share with you the startling evidence that proved to them that they had been deceived by their own religious organization.

David Reed became an atheist in his teens, went to Harvard University and after a year left in a determined search for God. Jehovah’s Witnesses befriended him and he joined the Watchtower, but over time, reading his Bible and examining the claims of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, he realized that he had been deceived. He left the Watchtower organization and put his belief in Jesus as his Savior.

Lorri MacGregor became a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses at age eighteen and later almost died refusing a blood transfusion. When she began to honestly question what the Watchtower taught, she was excommunicated and cut off. Eventually her study of the Bible brought her to true belief in Jesus Christ.

Duane Magnani was a child of Jehovah’s Witness parents. He left the Watchtower and later was recruited as an adult; eventually the evidence led him to leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Duane is now recognized as a fully qualified expert in court cases on beliefs and practices and has testified in over 110 child custody cases.

Joan Cetnar was raised in a Jehovah’s Witness home and was one of the heirs to the S.S. Kresge fortune. Joan married a Jehovah’s Witness leader and joined him in Brooklyn Headquarters in New York. She was able to observe firsthand how the president and other leaders of the Jehovah’s Witnesses lived. She left the Watchtower Society and became a Christian when she realized the Watchtower was not teaching her what the Bible said. Her convictions separated her from her family and cost her an inheritance which would have made her a millionaire.

We invite you to listen as our guests present the evidence they discovered concerning the false teachings and claim of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization.

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Program 1: Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses Convention
Theocratic War Strategy

John Ankerberg: Welcome! We’re here in beautiful Pennsylvania with a group of folks that the majority of them used to be Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is an ex-Jehovah’s Witness Convention, and these folks along the way gained information that caused them to leave the Watchtower Society. And if you listen to our program today you will understand why. Maybe you are a Jehovah’s Witness and you will want to see if they are telling the truth and you’ve thought about these things yourself.

And on stage today, we have guests that all grew up as Jehovah’s Witnesses. We actually have among them a former elder, who actually taught in the Kingdom Hall—their little churches that they call Kingdom Halls; and we have two ladies that went door-to-door in what they call “pioneer work” just like you might have had somebody come by your house and knock on the door and give you a little Watchtower magazine. They did that. And one of them actually worked at the Brooklyn headquarters. And then we have a fellow that, although he grew up in the Jehovah’s Witnesses, is now an expert court testifier, if you will, a witness in court trials concerning the affairs of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and he is considered to be one of the experts in the world on what they believe.

And, folks, we’re really glad that you’re here. And we’re going to start off with something that is very, very interesting, and that is that all of you came to the conclusion that this Watchtower Society that gave you your religious beliefs, you all decided at one time or another that the Society itself had lied to you. And, in fact, let’s go one step further, they actually have a doctrine, you say, that’s called Theocratic War Strategy. You’ve got to define terms for us.

Lorri, start us off. You used to go door-to-door and you used to teach the things of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. What is Theocratic War Strategy? What does that mean, first of all, and what is a Theocratic War Strategy, and what does it have to do with lying?

Lorri MacGregor: Okay. Theocratic begins with theo, which is the word for God, so it’s really “God rule.” And War Strategy, another way that we could define that would be as “justified lying.” So there are times in the life of a Jehovah’s Witness where they feel quite justified in lying. Their publications tell them that they only have to tell the truth to those who are entitled to know the truth.

Ankerberg: Who are those that are “entitled”?

MacGregor: Well, they decide. If it’s going to be harmful for them, then you’re not entitled.

Ankerberg: So, if you come to the door, and all of a sudden I start to kind of bring up some things that you’re not comfortable with, what would you do?

MacGregor: Well as a Jehovah’s Witness we always said you have to leave now, because we’ve got another appointment. We didn’t have another appointment, John. We just wanted to get off the porch and out from under the fire.

Ankerberg: Duane, would Jehovah’s Witnesses actually lie under oath in court, and would the Watchtower Society urge them to do so?

Duane Magnani: I’ll tell you, John, this is the most nefarious publication I think the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has ever put out.

Ankerberg: What is it?

Magnani: It’s called Preparing for Child Custody Cases. And it actually is a manual, I believe, for perjury. Let me give you an example. One of the judges in one of the cases made this statement in his final opinion.

Ankerberg: And we need to tell the folks that are listening in right now, you are called as an expert witness in a court case, specifically with child custody cases where you might have a divorce going on, or there’s a separation between a Jehovah’s Witness and a non-Jehovah’s Witness partner. And so, tell me a little about the background of what goes on here.

Magnani: Well, before I read this to you, the scenario is that you have both a Jehovah’s Witness and a non-Jehovah’s Witness parent, in essence in a battle over this child. The problem is that you have two lifestyles which are so diametrically opposed that the Jehovah’s Witness feels that he is in a battle in the courtroom, and the only way that he can make a court feel that the child is normal is to basically lie about the aspiration of the child, the lifestyle of the child, and so forth. And this judge picked it right up in regards to his feeling about what this manual says. Listen to this. He says “Members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses group are furnished with a booklet prepared by the Watchtower Society, entitled Preparing for Child Custody Cases, the purpose of which is to instruct adherents of the group involved in custody disputes how to testify so as to conceal from the courts the true limitations and restrictions placed upon children by the lifestyle and beliefs of the group.” And he goes on to say “The booklet, Preparing for Child Custody Cases, recommends the giving of testimony under oath which is known to be untrue.”

Ankerberg: Goodness’ sakes. David, right along that line, you’ve got a quote from the 1957 Watchtower magazine itself about lying. What is it?

David Reed: Yes, looking at the May 1, 1957, Watchtower, and it’s an article titled “Use Theocratic War Strategy.” And this two-page article instructs Jehovah’s Witnesses exactly how to lie and just when to do it. In particular, it says “In time of spiritual warfare, it is proper to misdirect the enemy by hiding the truth.” And Jehovah’s Witnesses feel they are in spiritual warfare much of the time, especially in a court case. But it’s interesting that this article does say that on a witness stand, he is obligated to speak the truth if he speaks at all. So they’re actually contradicting their own teaching in the Watchtower by what they have in the booklet that Duane just quoted from.

Ankerberg: Okay, now you were an elder in the Kingdom Hall. Did you teach this stuff? That the people were supposed to lie?

Reed: Well, if people asked me about that subject, I would tell them that it was Theocratic War Strategy, and it was appropriate under some circumstances to lie.

Ankerberg: Yeah, let’s get to the bottom line here for you. Lorri, I mean, the fact is you are taught to lie. There is something fundamentally wrong here if you are representing God and you have to lie in doing so. I mean, what’s the bottom line here?

MacGregor: Well, the bottom line is that if you’re a Jehovah’s Witness, and you have the truth, and everyone else is wrong, that puts you in God’s territory, and it puts everybody else in Satan’s territory. So they consider, for instance, when they go into a courtroom that this sure isn’t God’s territory, this is Satan’s territory, and so they feel perfectly fine if it suits the needs and desires of the organization to employ Theocratic War Strategy or justified lying in that court of law, because, those people aren’t entitled to know the truth.

Ankerberg: Okay. We’re going to take a break. And, Duane, when we come back I want to talk about what does go on inside of the courtroom and I also want to talk more about this thing of you were lying for God. Why did you have to lie for God, if God is telling the truth, he’s not afraid of us finding out what he actually says, so why are we covering it up from somebody. And we’ll talk about that when we come right back.

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Ankerberg: Alright, we’re back. And, Duane, we’re talking about this thing of lying, and again the question comes up here: why were you lying for God? Does he need some kind of help? What were you trying to cover up?

Magnani: Well, I don’t think a Jehovah’s Witness thinks of himself as lying. I think he thinks of himself as defending the truth. And I think that Jehovah’s Witnesses basically are honest people. I think that their organization is dishonest, and I think unfortunately, they have been forced into saying things that are not true, and, of course, it comes in the courtroom.

Ankerberg: How concerned are you in court that the Jehovah’s Witnesses will lie?

Magnani: Well, this is a matter of a child’s welfare. This is a matter of how that child is going to be raised. Is he going to be raised with principles, for instance, which teaches him that truth is truth, that it’s really important to always tell the truth; or is he going to be raised in the environment of a Jehovah’s Witness family which, sometimes, in some cases, and particularly in the courtroom has to tell lies to defend their belief system?

Probably the best example is in the booklet Preparing for Child Custody Cases I was telling you about. On just one page, they have a section called “Evidence of Young People,” and this is direct examination and responses for young Jehovah’s Witnesses. And the first line says—and this is training a Jehovah’s Witness child to testify in the courtroom—the first line says “this can be used to show that they are normal,” alright? In other words, they want to make certain that this child looks normal to the court; in other words, like other kids. Here’s a couple of examples of how this is brought out. “Be careful,” it says, “they don’t get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the Circuit Assembly”—now the Circuit Assembly is an assembly of Jehovah’s Witnesses that’s held a couple of times a year— “where they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the Kingdom Hall.” In other words, that’s the number one thing for a Jehovah’s Witness kid, and he doesn’t want to get the impression that he’s supposed to tell that to the judge. That is bad.

Ankerberg: Let me go through this. Is this the impression that you had as a group, when you were in the Jehovah’s Witnesses, that you had to lie to protect what you were doing?

Joan Cetnar: I don’t think we thought of it as lying. We just felt as though we had to defend what the Watchtower said, because it is God’s organization. But they did have Watchtower articles about it, and used people from the Bible, like David and how he pretended he was insane so he would not be in danger in Philistine territory. So they did make a point of, if it’s necessary, you don’t have to tell the truth.

Ankerberg: The thing about that, Joan, is that, who are you protecting? We come back to this thing of trying to protect God, and yet you were saying God is God, and he’s got this truth, and the whole world is supposed to know. But you didn’t really want to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Cetnar: I think it’s a good example of how you’re under mind control, and you do not realize that you are lying.

Ankerberg: What other things did the Watchtower lie to you about? Besides having an out for you to lie, how did they lie to you?

Reed: They lied quite a bit about their history. The Watchtower would present failed prophecies in a very favorable light, as if they had really been speaking the truth, and events really did fulfill their words, even though the prophecies were not fulfilled.

Ankerberg: Yeah, David. Let’s get it down for the people, that the Watchtower claims to be the official channel of truth for the entire earth, for all people. It comes only through them, right?

Cetnar: Right.

Ankerberg: So God, this theocracy, God rules directly, through the Watchtower, and in the process he makes statements that show up in the Watchtower magazine, and in some of your stuff. Give me something that they said, either Charles Taze Russell, or Rutherford, or Knorr or somebody of the Presidents that put it in officially into print, said “this is going to happen,” and it just was a blatant lie.

Reed: Prime example was their book Millions Now Living Will Never Die that was published in 1920. And it declared that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would be resurrected in 1925. That obviously didn’t happen, and yet the Watchtower covers that in some of their history books today, and they present it in a very favorable light. It doesn’t show up as a false prophecy.

Ankerberg: So they’re actually saying that the Old Testament characters Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were supposed to resurrect, and show up in 1925. Where were they supposed to show up?

Reed: Well, the society later built a house for them in San Diego, California, called Beth Sarim. And the deed to that house was actually made out in the name of the ancient patriarchs and kings of Israel that were supposed to live there. They didn’t, and the society eventually sold the building, because nobody was ever resurrected to live there. Judge Rutherford, the president, lived there. But now when they cover that in their Watchtower history books, they just gloss it over and pretend that there was no false statement made about it.

Ankerberg: Alright. Now if biblically, even according to the Watchtower’s own literature, if somebody claims to be speaking for God, and says a lie—makes a false prophecy—then what does the Watchtower say about that prophet?

Reed: They would say that’s a false prophet, condemned by God, but they have various excuses why their statements don’t fall into that category.

Ankerberg: Give me one.

Reed: They say they never spoke in the name of Jehovah. They say that they didn’t say that this would actually happen; this was just their hope of what would happen.

Ankerberg: But of course, if they’re putting it officially in print and saying it, and they are God’s spokesmen on earth, then God said it, didn’t he?

Magnani: Yes. In fact, there are some of their prophecies where they actually said, these are Jehovah’s words through Jesus Christ.

Ankerberg: Joan?

Cetnar: If they admit that it was a false prophecy, then they are not a false prophet. That’s their definition of a false prophet is one who does not acknowledge and admit his error. So if I admit it, I’m not a false prophet.

Ankerberg: Lorri, give me another false prophecy that you came across, that the Watchtower actually had in print, and when you discovered it. Tell me what it was, first of all.

MacGregor: Well, for me, I was really looking forward to 1975. That was supposed to be the end of the world, Armageddon, the ushering in of the millennium. That wasn’t the first lie they told. Right from the get-go they told me if I’d be a Jehovah’s Witness they promised me a happy family life, they promised a life forever on a Paradise Earth, and that what a wonderful group we’d be in Jehovah’s Witnesses. But they really were no different than other people. There was backbiting and fighting and squabbling and yes, there were some really close relationships I formed there. But the fact is, there really wasn’t an extra special group of people. 1975 failed, and many people were left very unhappy.

Ankerberg: For those of us who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses we have a little tough time here with what you’ve just said. We’ve got to go over this a little more slowly. They said that the end of the world was going to happen in 1975?

MacGregor: Yes, they certainly did.

Ankerberg: I mean, that’s mind boggling to us that are listening. And you guys were basically,… you were believing that?

MacGregor: We absolutely believed it. Some of us, like myself, sold our home and moved to an area the Society recommended to us so that we could preach in a district where there weren’t so many Jehovah’s Witnesses. We really believed them and looked to them as our mother organization.

Ankerberg: The world didn’t come to an end in 1975 as far as I know, because we’re still here, and so, what,… I mean, when it didn’t happen, then what?

MacGregor: Well, they glossed it over, as usual. They came up with several implausible excuses. They said they maybe counted wrong, because they weren’t absolutely sure how much of a time lapse there was between the creation of Adam and Eve and, you know, that could make a difference they said; months, but not years. But then years went by.

Ankerberg: But after you have believed them and they lied to you, and you know that, how many chances do you give them on that kind of a thing?

MacGregor: I can’t believe how many chances we all gave them. We said, well, everybody makes mistakes and how could they be a false prophet, if they admit that they made a mistake. And I wish I’d done a few things like read their constitution. In their amendment to their constitution it says that their purpose is to prophesy.

Ankerberg: But they’re prophesying falsely. Duane, help me out in terms of a person that is a Jehovah’s Witness that is listening to us right now, and says, you know, there are some other prophecies that I’ve seen that aren’t right either, alright? I mean, how many of those do you need to see before you take some action, and what action would you recommend?

Magnani: Well, in the case of 1975, one third of all Jehovah’s Witnesses left the movement, so not everybody wants to continue in a false prophet organization. I think with the Internet right now, with the fact that we can get this information out throughout the world, that people can start understanding the history of the movement. People who love truth—and many of them are Jehovah’s Witnesses; there’s four here, ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses who love the truth, and there’s an audience of people here who love truth—the main thing is knowing that Jesus Christ is the truth, the way, the truth and the life, and knowing that he wouldn’t lie; and so why should we if we want to be Christians?

Ankerberg: Joan, for people that love Jesus, and yet they don’t know, really, who he is, what would you advise them to do, if they’re Jehovah’s Witnesses, realizing that the Watchtower Society has lied to them over here, they don’t want to be abandoned to nothingness out here. How do they go? How did you go when you hit this kind of dead end, how did you talk to Jesus at that point?

Cetnar: I really didn’t know if I was supposed to talk to Jesus at all. And so I said, “Father in Heaven, I’m not really sure who Jesus is,” and I began reading the Bible, and seeing that what I had been taught…. Of course, when I found out that they were false prophets, I lost trust in the organization, and so I knew that I could trust the Bible and I knew I could trust God. And so I went to the word of God, and I began to see that what I had been taught all my life was not the truth about Jesus. But it took me a while before I found out. But when I did find out that it says that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life, I realized it wasn’t an organization, it was an individual that I had to put my trust in, and that he would never let me down.

Ankerberg: We’re going to talk more about getting to know Jesus, who he is, and we’re going to talk about that. But we want to leave you with some hope, alright. The fact is that there’s a whole lot more that these folks have to say that they’ve discovered, that this audience has discovered, and you might be in despair, you might be discouraged right now, listening, and realizing some of these things are going to burst your worldview, so to speak. Hang in there and don’t give up hope. Some of these folks have been there, and they’ve got good news for you, and it’s wrapped up in Jesus and in knowledge about him that actually comes from that Bible that you’ve been carrying around. So hang in there with us, and next week we’re going to look at one of the key prophecies that have been given and held to, and changed throughout the Watchtower’s history. And so I hope that you’ll join us next week when we talk about the 1914 generation.

Read Part 2