Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses Convention – Program 2

By: Dr. John Ankerberg, Joan Cetnar, Duane Magnani, Lorri MacGregor, David Reed; ©1999

Jehovah’s Witness leaders claim God speaks to His people through them. But often the leader’s messages contradict previous teachings. How do they use the term “new light” to justify the change?

Introduction

Today on the John Ankerberg Show, you will meet four former Jehovah’s Witnesses who will share with you the startling evidence that proved to them that they had been deceived by their own religious organization.

David Reed became an atheist in his teens, went to Harvard University and after a year left in a determined search for God. Jehovah’s Witnesses befriended him and he joined the Watchtower, but over time, reading his Bible and examining the claims of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, he realized that he had been deceived. He left the Watchtower organization and put his belief in Jesus as his Savior.

Lorri MacGregor became a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses at age eighteen and later almost died refusing a blood transfusion. When she began to honestly question what the Watchtower taught, she was excommunicated and cut off. Eventually her study of the Bible brought her to true belief in Jesus Christ.

Duane Magnani was a child of Jehovah’s Witness parents. He left the Watchtower and later was recruited as an adult; eventually the evidence led him to leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Duane is now recognized as a fully qualified expert in court cases on beliefs and practices and has testified in over 110 child custody cases.

Joan Cetnar was raised in a Jehovah’s Witness home and was one of the heirs to the S.S. Kresge fortune. Joan married a Jehovah’s Witness leader and joined him in Brooklyn Headquarters in New York. She was able to observe firsthand how the president and other leaders of the Jehovah’s Witnesses lived. She left the Watchtower Society and became a Christian when she realized the Watchtower was not teaching her what the Bible said. Her convictions separated her from her family and cost her an inheritance which would have made her a millionaire.

We invite you to listen as our guests present the evidence they discovered concerning the false teachings and claim of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization.

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Program 2: Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses Convention
New Light

Ankerberg: Welcome. We are coming to you from beautiful Pennsylvania. As you look across this audience, most of the people who are here are Former Jehovah’s Witnesses, or they have family members that are JW’s right now. And on stage we have four former Jehovah’s Witnesses.

David, let’s start with you this week. The JW’s have this neat little thing called “New Light.” That is when God is supposed to speak through the Watchtower organization, and it’s a theocratic society, that God rules through them and they’re the ones, and you guys had to do what the boys in Brooklyn said, alright?

Now, the fact is that when they said something, and then they wanted to change that slightly in the name of God, they called that what?

Reed: New light.

Ankerberg: New light. That’s a neat phrase.

Reed: New truth.

Ankerberg: What does it actually mean, and how did it work?

Reed: Well, we would wait anxiously for each new issue of the Watchtower or Awake! magazine. And when we got a new issue, we’d look very quickly for something new in it. Also, at our conventions, especially the large conventions in the summer time, we would hang on every word of the speaker, waiting for some new information that was different from what we had been taught before.

Ankerberg: Goodness. What was the new light that came on this thing that you called the “1914 Generation Prophecy”? That’s a real mouthful there. Lorri, what does that all mean?

MacGregor: Basically what this was the generation that saw 1914 would also see Armageddon. But you had to be of an age, we believed in the 60’s that you would comprehend the events of 1914, the world wars and so on.

Ankerberg: Alright. Slow that down, because it’s not familiar to us that are not JW’s. A lot of you guys, you know these words here, but the fact is Armageddon. What did Armageddon mean?

MacGregor: Well, Armageddon was the great fiery battle, the end of the world, when Jehovah God would come and zap everybody except JW’s.

Ankerberg: Alright. And that was supposed to happen when?

MacGregor: Well, it was supposed to happen within the generation from 1914. So in order to understand the events then, you had to be born around the turn of the century. And of course this is why 1975 looked so good, but when people began to getting really long in the tooth, you know, they had to sort of rethink this.

Ankerberg: David, what have you got there?

Reed: Well, I’ve got the Awake! magazine. The Watchtower put that prophecy in each Awake! magazine between 1988 and the end of 1995. And specifically they said, “This magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world, before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.” That was repeated over and over again every Awake! magazine. And the important point is that it said it was the Creator’s promise, and it said that this would happen before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passed away.

Ankerberg: So they were really nailing it down that God said this?

Reed: Really. Yes.

Cetnar: Every Awake! magazine after November 8 will have a changed masthead. And it says in there “The Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world that is about the replace the present wicked, lawless system of things.” No reference to the 1914 generation any more.

Ankerberg: So they changed it

Cetnar: They sure did. They changed the Creator’s promise. They can’t do that.

Ankerberg: Yeah, Duane, can you actually change the Creator’s promise?

Magnani: Well, if you’re the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. It seems like they have that authority, because it’s been a regular things over the last 100 years or so with prophecies. But the problem is that every time this happens the Watchtower Tower comes up with an excuse, you know, such as, we really didn’t exactly say it, people inferred that we said it, or nobody’s perfect, and we were just trying, and we really wanted these things to happen. In fact, they really did say that this was God who actually said this. In fact one of the strongest position points that they made on this is in this May 15, 1984 Watchtower which shows a bunch of older folks from the turn of the century who were part of this generation, and of course the heading is “1914, the Generation That Will Not Pass Away.” Interestingly, on pages 6 and 7 there is this quote, John, which kind of sums up the whole thing, I think. It says, “Jehovah’s prophetic word, through Jesus Christ, is ‘this generation of 1914 will by no means pass away until all these things occur.’ Luke 21:32. And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy will bring about the fulfilment.” So you can’t say it any stronger. They said God said it, he didn’t, so they are false prophets.

Ankerberg: Now, why are we bringing this thing up? Why is this so important?

Magnani: God forbids false prophecy. He condemns false prophecy. He says false prophecy is something not of his people. And he warns his people about false prophets. And that’s why I left JW’s. I truly believed that if I left school in 1973 and I didn’t pursue my law career, that within 18 months I would be in Paradise. And I believed that, because the Watchtower organization stated that in their magazines.

Ankerberg: And then it didn’t happen. What happened to you, Duane?

Magnani: Praise God!

Ankerberg: Why do you say praise God?

Magnani: Well, I’ll tell you what happened. Joan Cetnar’s wonderful husband, Bill, one day shared with me first of all, that I was not in the truth. And the way he shared it was the types of things we’re talking about today, John: false prophecies of the organization, one after the other; and many of the other lies of the organization. And so my whole foundation crumbled. What was left was an open ear to hear Jesus Christ. At that point in time I could hear him, and instead of knocking on doors, he knocked on my heart.

Ankerberg: So what you’re saying is that hitting that brick wall of a false prophecy, that this started to bring you to the true knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Magnani: Exactly.

Ankerberg: Alright. We’re going to take a break, and we’re going to come back and we’re going to talk about this thing of what do you do when you see that the Watchtower Society has straight out lied in their publications: you go toward suicide, you give up hope, you realize you may lose your family if you make a decision here. Joan, it cost you a fortune, millions of dollars. We’re going to talk about it. These folks on stage have gone through it, so if you’re a JW, stick with us. We’ve got a lot to talk to you about. Hang in there.

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Ankerberg: Alright, we’re back. And I’d like to come to a former elder, the guy that actually did the preaching and teaching in the Kingdom Hall. And, David, this thing of false prophecy, it’s so hard for those that are not JW’s to understand this, but I mean, there’s a whole bunch of these statements about the end of the world, or Jesus coming back, or all kinds of things. Tell us some of the things you used to teach and believe yourself.

Reed: Yes, the 1914 generation failure was just their most recent prophetic failure. When Charles Taze Russell began pushing Zion’s Watchtower in 1879, he was teaching that Christ had returned invisibly in 1874, and there would be a 40 year harvest period leading up to the end of the world in 1914. When that didn’t happen, his disappointed followers just came to expect that 1918 would see the end. When that failed they were led to believe that 1925 would be the end of the world, along with the resurrection of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. After that they began looking to the 1940’s. They believed that World War II was the beginning of Armageddon, and that it would continue and end up in the end of the world,

When I became a Witness, when I started studying in 1968, the teaching was that the world would end around October 4 or 5, 1975. And I had close friends who sold their business and went out with the money they had left, speaking door-to-door full time. And I myself neglected dental care, because 1975 was going to be the end of the world. So this organization didn’t just make a mistake on the 1914 generation, they have a long history as false prophets.

Ankerberg: You know, we’ve got people in New York and Los Angeles that are in these condominiums and high rises that are JW’s that are listening in, okay? And they’re saying, you know, I wonder if he’s right? You see, if you’re right, what does this mean?

Reed: Well, it means that the Watchtower fits the Bible’s definition of a false prophet. Deuteronomy 18 says that a prophet who speaks that something will happen, and then it doesn’t happen, and he speaks in God’s name, he is a false prophet, he is condemned, and you shouldn’t follow such a person. So the thing that this means is that the JW’s need to look somewhere else to find a way to God, not to that organization.

Ankerberg: And not only that, but the thing that you’re saying, the reason that it’s so deadly, if we could use that term, is that if they actually can go back and can find these books that we’re quoting, it’s in there.

Reed: Absolutely. Every one of these, they can find in their own Kingdom Hall library, or in their own book shelves.

Ankerberg: Lorri, you’ve got another one that sounds unfamiliar to us that are not JW’s, called the doctrine about the sheep and the goats. What in the world is that all about?

MacGregor: Well, again, it’s misinterpretation, probably of Matthew 25. The sheep are, of course, God’s people, and the goats are the unbelievers, or those that won’t receive the Gospel. So the JW’s consider themselves the sheep. And as the sheep, they went out door-to-door, because, this wasn’t just knocking on doors to count time, but we really believed we were doing this biblical separating work. If we knocked on a door and the guy was rude and said “I’m not listening to this” and shut the door in our face, then Jehovah would look down from heaven and he would say, “There’s a goat. He’s not going to make it through Armageddon. He’ll never be a JW. Gone is his life. And so we really believed that we were operating under angelic protection. We were told that the angels were watching us. How they would have loved to go and do the separating work of the sheep and the goats. But no, we were the privileged ones to go and do this very important Bible work of the last days. Well, it was sure a letdown for those that worked their whole lives

Ankerberg: I was just listening to what you were saying here in terms of this thing of going door-to-door. You had to go door-to-door, because if you did go door-to-door, what would happen to you?

MacGregor: Well, Jehovah God would look at your service report, of course, and see how much time you had put into the door-to-door work, and how many Bible studies you were conducting. And apparently he has some sort of system of brownie points. So maybe your works would be good enough to get you through Armageddon, maybe they wouldn’t.

Ankerberg: Let’s explain to the folks that are watching in real quickly here, and maybe, David, you can help me out on this thing. There are three classes in terms of who gets what in terms of the end results here. Go through the three classes in Jehovah’s Witnesses in terms of salvation here.

Reed: Well, JW’s believe 144,000 will go to heaven, and out of that number…

Ankerberg: Only 144,000.

Reed: Only 144,000. In fact, most of those are people from ancient Bible history. And so only about 8,000 of the people who go to the Kingdom Hall today will get into heaven. There are 15 million people going to Kingdom Hall. They believe that out of those, the ones who are being fully obedient and comply with everything that the organization tells them, they’ll live in a Paradise Earth when the earth is wiped. All the rest of the people are wiped out from the earth.

Ankerberg: But they only get to go to Paradise Earth if they go door-to-door, right?

Cetnar: Right.

Reed: Oh, yes. If they’re not going door-to-door, they’re not witnessing for God, so they’re not a witness.

Ankerberg: And then if you get into that millennial kingdom, that’s not a sure thing either, because then you’ve got to perform over there, and then maybe you get to go on beyond that right?

Reed: That’s right.

Ankerberg: And then the third class is what?

Reed: Well, the third class would be everybody else in the world: people who are Baptist, Pentecostals, Catholics…

Ankerberg: The bad guys.

Reed: And they are going to all be just totally wiped out and destroyed.

Ankerberg: Or some of them get another chance, isn’t that right? Some of them?

Reed: They believe that those who die before Armageddon will get resurrected during that 1,000 year period, and they’ll be under the rule of the Watchtower. And if they conform at that time, they’ll be able to earn everlasting life.

Ankerberg: Was it good news to hear that Jesus said that “Whosoever will may come?”

Lorri: It’s wonderful news.

Ankerberg: You know, nobody is excluded from heaven. It’s not just a special club for 144,000. But, I mean, everybody gets to go if they want to believe in Christ.

Cetnar: That’s right.

Reed: Amen. That’s one of the verses we tended to gloss over. We didn’t focus on that one.

Cetnar: It wasn’t for us.

Ankerberg: Joan, how has this sheep and goats thing changed in the Watchtower?

Cetnar: Well, no longer are the sheep and goats being separated by the Witness work. They are pointing to the future when Jesus himself as the king will separate the sheep and the goats. Got to say I think they are closer to right. But this is a terrible letdown for these people who have been working all their lives thinking that they were the ones doing the work of God.

Ankerberg: Duane, in terms of folks that are in the Watchtower, what’s the current state of Armageddon?

Magnani: Well, that’s a very tough question. Recently the organization said that the JW’s could see the end of their preaching work by the year 2000. We’re talking not too far from now. But they changed it immediately and said that, basically, they’re not quite sure. So right now JW’s are a little nervous; they don’t know how long this is going to go on. And as a former JW, I can tell you that is a very, very unhappy feeling. One thing you are looking forward to is Armageddon, because Paradise is on the other side. So they just don’t know.

Ankerberg: Isn’t there something, Lorri, that we want people to understand is that, look, God doesn’t operate this way.

MacGregor: You’ve got that right.

Ankerberg: I mean, sum this up here. How does God operate? What’s the good news? What did you find out. Don’t leave people in despair that are out there saying, hey I can check out my Watchtowers and I can check out all these false prophecies and realize that we were lied to. I mean, that’s not an upper, okay. What’s the upper here?

MacGregor: Well, the upper is that there is a condition called grace. And grace means that you don’t work for it, you don’t have to have a bunch of apprehensions: have I done enough, given enough, gone door-to-door, will Jehovah find me worthy, am I loyal enough to the organization? Maybe I saw someone smoking and I didn’t turn them in. Is that going to get me a black mark? You know, we were in a constant state of apprehension, but how wonderful to just read the word of God, I don’t mean the distorted one the Watchtower Society put out, but I mean the real word of God that says we can know that we have eternal life. Not that we might earn it, or it might come some day, pie in the sky by and by. But once we receive Christ, “as many as received him” past tense, to those he’s given this wonderful hope of eternal life. And I’m so glad to know that I know that I know that I know I am secure in Christ, and he will never leave me nor forsake me.

Ankerberg: David, added to that, the fact is, how did you start a relationship with the Jesus that you came to realize the Bible was really presenting to you?

Reed: Well, I think that as a JW I was afraid to even talk to Jesus, because we were told that you just pray to Jehovah in Jesus’ name. But by reading about the account of Stephen being stoned to death, I saw that he turned to Jesus and actually appealed to him directly. Now the Witnesses try to dismiss that. They say he was having a vision. But he had the vision in the Sanhedrin. He was dragged outside the city of Jerusalem, and he was stoned. This was quite a while after the vision. He turned to Jesus. He spoke to Jesus. When I saw that in the Bible, I realized that I too could talk to Jesus and he would hear my appeal.

Ankerberg: Would you lead the folks in a prayer that might start their conversation and their relationship with Jesus if they’d like to pray along with you? Would you pray for them?

Reed: Sure thing. Heavenly Father, thank you for sending your son to save us. Thank you, Father, for making the provision that we don’t have to work to earn our salvation, we don’t have to be in the right organization to be saved. We just have to turn to your son. Thank you, Father, for recognizing me as a sinner, helping me to see myself as a sinner, and that I can’t save myself. So I trust now in your son Jesus to save me. And I commit myself to follow his lead and his rulership as my leader, my Lord. I trust, Father, that you have given me salvation through the name and the blood of your son, Jesus. Amen.

Ankerberg: Now, one of the things that, if you prayed that prayer, that you recognize is you may be disfellowshiped out of your Kingdom Hall. And if you are a non-JW and you don’t know what that’s like, you need to tune in next week. We’re going to talk about disfellowshiping and the tragic result this can have in families, and the pressure this puts on JW’s that are listening to us in this program and might want to look at Christ in a different way. They may want to look at the New Testament and question what they’ve been taught before. But if they do, it may cost them their family, it may cost them their job, and it may cost them some other things. And that’s what we’re going to talk about next week, so I hope that you’ll join us.

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