The Great Debate on Science and the Bible – Program 2

By: Dr. John Ankerberg, Ken Ham, Dr. Jason Lisle, Dr. Hugh Ross, Dr. Walter Kaiser, Jr.; ©2005

What is the Literal Interpretation the Word “Day” in Genesis?

Program 2: The Great Debate on Science and the Bible – What is the Literal Interpretation the Word “Day” in Genesis?

Introduction

Today on The John Ankerberg Show, the Great Debate on Science and the Bible. My guests are Ken Ham and astrophysicist Dr. Jason Lisle of Answers in Genesis, debating astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross of Reasons to Believe, and Dr. Walter Kaiser, distinguished professor of Old Testament and President of Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.

Today, has science proven through astronomy, modern physics, and geology, that the universe and the earth are billions of years old? If this is true, are Christians who teach that the universe is only 6,000 years old erecting a hindrance to those looking for a factual Christian faith? Or is the opposite true, that Christians who teach the days of Genesis are six long periods of time are really the one’s not interpreting the Bible literally?

These four men model how Christians who strongly disagree can discuss their different views with love and respect.

Join us for this important debate and hear both sides present their case.

---

Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. Our guests are all here, and guys, thank you for coming. I really appreciate you being here. And let’s kind of recap and move on from where we were last week. We are talking about what is a literal interpretation of the word day in Genesis 1 and 2. What is it? What is “literal”? What does the word literal mean? Ken, start us off this week.

Ham: Well, literal, if you look up a definition of literal, literal literally means – if you can say that – basically, what’s obvious; the plain meaning, if you like. Taking words, in fact, one of the definitions, “taking words in their usual primary sense, and applying the ordinary rules of grammar, without mysticism, allegory or metaphor.” And I would say that if you do that with the word yom right there in Genesis, you’ve got the same formula for each of the six days. I’d just be interested in asking Dr. Kaiser a question, if I can.

Ankerberg: Go ahead.

Ham: Dr. Ross, I already know you believe in billions of years. I mean, we’ve read all your books, so I know you believe in billions of years. Dr. Kaiser, there’s a reason why I’m asking the question, if you don’t mind.

Kaiser: Well, let’s hear it.

Ham: Do you believe in billions of years, as does Dr. Ross, for the age of the earth and the universe, and so on?

Kaiser: The biblical date is very clear: “In the beginning.” [Gen. 1:1] And I think those are the biblical grounds. After that you go off the biblical grounds, which is where I’m not an authority. Then you ask from other evidences that are found in the created order that God has given. And so it seems to me that that is a secondary question. But the primary one on which we ought to be agreeing is there was nothing, there was no pre-existing matter or form. It was God that started the whole thing. And then everything, I think, begins to depend on whether we think that there is a recent creation and that means that we’ve got to start adding up numbers, which the biblical text didn’t add up. In Genesis 5 and Genesis 11, nowhere does the biblical text give a sum. And therefore, when I put a summary, I’m doing what the Holy Spirit did in certain passages, like 1 Kings 6:1 or in Exodus 12:41, where He will give a block of years, and will summarize. But never once does the Holy Spirit summarize in Genesis 5 and in Genesis 11. Therefore, I would be going against the work of the Holy Spirit, and against the Bible, if I summarize those years.

Ankerberg: Alright…

Ham: I …

Ankerberg: Come back to this thing of what is a literal interpretation, and is Moses acquainted with literal interpretations, literal uses of the word? Did Moses himself use the word, you can nail it down that it’s a 12-hour day, it’s a 24-hour day, it’s a longer period of time? Where does he nail that down? Help us out.

Kaiser: He nails it down in the text, John! In verse 5 of chapter 1, he says that it’s day as opposed to night. So, as a matter of fact, if you press me I’m going to take Jesus’ view of a day. He says in John 11:9, “Are there not twelve hours in a day?” so I’m a 12-hour man, I’m not a 24-hour man!

Ham: Yes, but one of the meanings…

Kaiser: I mean, if you want to be cynical.

Ham: But one of the meanings of the Hebrew word for day is the daylight portion of a day….

Kaiser: Yes…

Ham: …as well as a 24-hour day. And so…

Kaiser: Exactly. That’s what I’m getting at.

Ross: As well as a long period of time. I mean, if you’ve got three different definitions in the lexicons for the word yom,…

Ham: They’ve got more than three.

Ross: … then that gives you different literal definitions.

Ham: No, but the point is, context always determines meaning. That’s the whole point.

Ross: That’s correct. But the whole point is you now have three different literal ways of reading that word day.

Ham: I think that’s a funny use of the word literal.

Ross: No, I mean these are the different definitions.

Ham: You know the interesting thing, Dr. Kaiser?

Kaiser: What’s that?

Ham: Outside of Genesis 1, we read day and we say, yes, that’s be yom, that means “when”; and yes, this is an ordinary day; and that means year; and that’s a point in time. We come to Genesis 1, and seem to have this major problem. And I suggest to you the driving force – because when I look at quotes from even respected guys, guys like Gleason Archer, who I greatly respect, and use a lot of his material – when I use quotes like him, or Pattle Pun or James Montgomery Boice, it’s the billions of years that’s driving them to say they can’t be ordinary days.

Ankerberg: The question, though is the fact is, in Genesis 1, if yom itself in terms of [days] 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 is a question mark, what does that mean? And we go to the fourth day and we’ve got light that’s 12 hours and then you’ve got 24 hours being created, you’ve got three in chapter 1, all by itself, and in chapter 2 you’ve got this long period of time. And then I find it interesting, you’re the one that told me that Moses wrote one Psalm, okay? And that’s where he said, “a day is like….”

Kaiser: Psalm 90. Psalm 90 he gives that “day with the Lord is as a thousand years.” But, again, that’s another context, John. And a literal meaning, everyone says their meaning is literal, among Bible believers, but literal meaning is natural. Or you want Latin so your mother won’t get this one, but usus loquendi, the spoken sense. What is the spoken sense that is used with regard to the context? And it’s daylight over against nighttime. That definitely is a use of the word yom. I mean, don’t shed any blood over that one. It’s there! And then, in Genesis 2:4, Moses uses yom again. He puts a be in front of it, which preposition, be yom, but still yom. And he is saying there, “In the day that the Lord God created the heavens and the earth,” he summarizes at least six creative acts. So there again…

Ham: But that’s not a problem, because the word day is used like that. Dr. Kaiser…

Kaiser: But your point though, Ken, is just yom. We’re just saying, can Moses use his word in other than 24-hour day ways? And I…

Ham: Of course he can!

Kaiser: … I’ve demonstrated to you that he has here, in this context, used it in at least two other ways.

Ham: Let me say this. Nobody denies that. And, in fact, if you look at all that we write, we say, hey, the word yom is used in a number of different ways. Nobody denies that. Of course it is. But the point is, Genesis 1, the formula for Day 1 – evening, morning, number, is the same formula for Day 2 – evening, morning, number, is the same formula for Day 3 – evening, morning, number, the same formula for Day 4 – evening, morning, number, the same formula for Day 5, the same formula for Day 6. Day 7 is not, we’re not introducing any more days now, so there’s no need to have evening and morning. But the point is the formula for each of the six days is exactly the same, is it not?

Ross: But you just heard Walt say that “evening and morning” refers to the ending of one day, the beginning of another day. The fact that we don’t see that formula for the seventh day means that the seventh day is still continuing.

Ham: No, that doesn’t mean that at all! I mean, everywhere where the word day is used with a number, I know you’ll say there are a couple of exceptions, we can answer those, because they’re not exceptions, when day is used with a number it means an ordinary day anyway. And any person reading Scripture, the average person reading Genesis 1, is going to say it means six days, which is why God Himself wrote, the very finger of God, it says, on tablets of stone. It’s six days.

Ross: But, Ken, all those other examples in the Bible where days are numbered it’s referring to human history. This is the only example in the Bible where numbered days are referring to natural history.

Ham: Actually…

Ross: So you’re mixing apples and oranges.

Ham: No. That’s not true. I mean we’re talking about the same word, :yom. And there is an instance where it is using a number… I’m trying to think where that instance is. Jason, do you remember? Anyway, I’ll come back to that when I think of that…

Ankerberg: Walter, pick it up there. Answer the question again.

Kaiser: Well, let me read from 1846, a theologian, William G. T. Shedd, still being reprinted by Presbyterians and others. He taught at Andover for many, many years. He says, “Respecting the length of the six created days, speaking generally, there are some differences of views between the Patristic and Medieval exegesis. But the Patristics and Medieval make them to be long periods, not days of 24-hours. The later interpretation has prevailed only in the modern church. Augustine teaches in The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, Book IV, Section 27, that the length of the six days is not to be determined by the length of our weekdays. Our seven days, he said, resembled the seven days of the account of creation.”

Ham: I’m not surprised…

Kaiser: That was G. T. Shedd quoting Augustine. And I have six other references there in Book V, Book IV, and Book VII of The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, where indeed Augustine makes this statement.

Ham: Well… by the way, you can’t…

Ankerberg: Let me push Ken the other way, okay? Is that, Day 1, Day 2, Day 3, you’ve already assumed that it means 24 hours.

Ham: No, I haven’t assumed that at all. I look at the word yom, in context,… by the way, I look at the scholarship, 18 centuries of 24-hours ….

Ankerberg: So what you’re saying is on a 24-hour day, when you’re talking about the fourth day, then, you’re assuming that the 24-hour day was made on a 24-hour day. Kaiser’s point is that on this thing that’s called a day, He made days. And so that you can’t come back and say, “I already know how he’s using it” before we get there!

Ham: No. The point is “All Scripture is inspired by God…” [2 Tim. 3:16]

Ankerberg: I think we all agree on that one.

Ham: … and God is – I know we all agree on that – God is using human authors, but He’s inspiring it…

Ankerberg: We all agree on that one.

Ham: …for us so that, you know we talk about the perspicuity of Scripture. I’m a good example of that – an average person who comes to Scripture, and looks at the obvious, natural meaning.

Ankerberg: But here’s my problem, Ken, is that, if you take a New Testament example. You’ve got Jesus talking and He says to Peter, “Do you love me?” Okay? Now, the average person says, “Well, shoot, I know what love means.” Okay, but you go a little further, and you find out that Greek can have erotic love, eros; and it can have agape, John 3:16 love; it can have friendship love.

Ham: Oh, exactly.

Ankerberg: So the question is, how do you know in advance, without looking at the text, and if the text has these, and you’ve got also a context – He asked it three times. So what I’m saying is, if Moses, if he’s using the word, and he’s used it in other places to suggest that it’s got these different meanings, how do you know in advance when you say everyday meaning, whose everyday meaning?

Ham: I think one of the things that we’ve got to understand is there’s been a lot of scholarship done over the years, in looking at the Hebrew language and understanding it and realizing, I mean, God communicates to us in language. And so there are certain rules, otherwise none of us can understand anything to communicate to each other.

Kaiser: Well, I think we’re only asking at this point whether the biblical text closes the deal in which there is only 24 hours. I think that has to be faced first, because as believers in the biblical text, that’s normative for us, and therefore, that’s got to be king. Then, secondly, we ask the evidential questions. But the primary question has to be about the breadth of use here. I don’t think that we can talk about ordinary believers understanding everything in Scripture. We can for salvation; that’s where that particular doctrine refers, that even a plowboy, said Tyndale, ought to be able to get the essential message of the Bible. But, an apostle like Peter, looking at some thing things that Paul wrote, he said, “which things are hard to understand.” [2 Pet. 3:16] There were some things there that were difficult for him. So not everything is on the same cookie shelf. There are some things that are real low; there are some things very high.

Ham: Well, nobody denies that. But you know what, Dr. Kaiser? If Calvin, Luther and Wesley believed in six days and going back in history we have Ambrose, we have Irenaeus, and we have Basil, all believing in 24-hour days. And I’ve got the quotes saying they believe in 24-hour days….

Ross: But those are disputed claims.

Ham: They are not disputed.

Ross: Yes, they are, Ken.

Ham: Eighteen centuries of scholarship where the majority opinion was young earth and six 24-hour days, and some of the great scholars today. The turning point was in the 18th century because of the millions of years. That was the turning, where you can see it in the commentaries.

Ross: This is 1681. This is what Isaac Newton says, “For ye number and length of six days by what is set above you may make ye first day as long as you please, and ye second day too.” This is…

Ham: That is not an authoritative statement. Well, regardless, I mean, Isaac Newton, I’m not saying that he got it right in regard of the days. I’m not quoting him as an authority. I’m talking of people like Calvin, Luther. Go back to Dabney…

Ross: But I’m giving you an example of a scholar who interpreted it as long periods of time long before the geologists and astronomers.

Ham: Well, again, read the statement at the bottom of the letter.

Ross: I did!

Ham: He said, “I’m not going to stand by or defend any of these…

Ross: He doesn’t say that in this letter.

Ham: …It’s a whole series of letters…

Ankerberg: Alright, we’ve got to move on, here guys. And we’re coming to a question that a lot of folks ask: when yom is used with a number, okay, either an ordinal or a cardinal – and Jason, explain what an ordinal and a cardinal is – when yom is used with a number in the Old Testament, does this show that it always must be a 24-hour day?

Lisle: Okay, well, first of all, a cardinal would be a number like one, two, three; and an ordinal would be first, second, third. Now, the first day of creation, it uses the cardinal number – one day: “there was evening, there was morning, one day.” [Gen. 1:5] And that’s probably because it’s defining what a day is. A day is an evening and a morning. You put the two together, you get a complete day. And so I think it makes a very strong case for a day in an ordinary sense as opposed to a longer period of time, again because of they are in that syntagmatic relationship. Now, the other days of creation, you can have another evening and another morning, you get a second day, a third day, a fourth day, a fifth day. Then it says the sixth day, because it’s special, it’s the last day of creation, where God makes Adam and Eve, and then the seventh day, because it’s special as well, it was the day where God rested. And God blessed it and sanctified it, God’s special day of rest. And…

Ankerberg: Why didn’t God use “there was evening and there was morning” on that last day?

Lisle: Well, again, it might be because it was a very special day, a day that God sanctified. It certainly doesn’t mean it’s a longer period of time. I mean, the Bible doesn’t say that last Thursday was bounded by evening and morning, but we can conclude that it was. So I mean, it would be an argument of silence to say that it’s because it doesn’t have …

Ankerberg: But do you find any other hints in the text itself of Scripture that would lead you that that may not be the right conclusion?

Lisle: No, I can’t find anything else wise that would say why the formula changes there. Seventh day is special. It’s the day that God sanctified and blessed.

Ankerberg: Okay, Walter, do you think there’s any tips in the text?

Kaiser: No, I like Jason’s explanation, and I think those are the exact correct things. Except that I do think that, deliberately, the seventh day was left open. Why? Because Scripture, again, says that, and that’s the argument from Psalm 95 and then also from Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4. But I would argue one, and then second, third, fourth, fifth and then the sixth and the seventh, is just writer’s style, stylistic. Certainly, seven doesn’t take us up to 24 hour. So the point is, they were in a series, and it’s a series of divine acts by the spoken word. Just like in Matthew 8:8, the Roman says, “Look, Lord, just speak the word and my servant will be healed.” And he found out, when was it that he was healed? It was in the same moment that He spoke the word. So it’s creation fiat, we call it – we use a Latin term there – it is a creation by virtue of the spoken word.

Ham: Dr. Kaiser, do you believe, as Dr. Ross does, that we are still in the seventh day now?

Kaiser: Yes, I think Hebrews really speaks of that, that God is still resting.

Ham: Okay, could I just ask you a question then, I mean, the Lord blessed the seventh day, He sanctified it. If we’re still in it now, I find it very hard to believe the world full of evil as we see it, with all the death and the suffering, and children dying, starvation, that God would call that a blessed, sanctified, day. And the other thing is that, you know, I know Dr. Ross believes in billions of years, if underneath the ground that Adam and Eve were standing on bones, and cancer, because there’s evidence of cancer and brain tumors in the fossil record, it’s hard to understand how God would call all that very good, and then bless the Sabbath, the Sabbath day, and sanctify it…

Ankerberg: Alright, could we hold on to that one until the next program when we talk about Adam and Eve. Let’s finish up this thing on…

Ross: Well, I’d like to address the one-day issue you’ve brought up, that one day defines a 24-hour period. Because we see that same phrase not just in Genesis 1:5. We see it in Zechariah 14:7, where one day now is referring to the Day of the Lord, which all Bible interpreters agree is a long period of time. So I don’t think we can use the one day formula.

Ham: Well, Zechariah 14:7, actually, if you read in context is talking about, too, before that, it talks about that day when Jesus descends and stands on the Mount of Olives. Now, He’s not going to do that slowly over millions of years. He’s going to do that in one day. And I think in context you can say there that there’s the word day being used in a prophetic sense, but it’s talking about a particular day. There is a particular day when Jesus will return.

Ross: But if you look at Zechariah 14 in context, it’s clearly dealing with the Day of the Lord, which is a long period of time.

Ham: And it’s saying Jesus descends and stands,… it says that day when He stands on the Mount of Olives. And then, you know, the other exception I know you bring up is Hosea 6:2…

Ross: Right.

Ham: …where it says “two days and three days.” But every commentator I’ve looked at talks about the fact that that’s an example of synonymous parallelism, which you see in that sort of writing, and that actually what it’s talking about is the restoration of Israel. And it’s saying, it’s using it, it’s using a word, literal word day. See if you’re going to use something in a metaphorical sense, or something like that, it has to have a literal meaning first. And so you have to have the literal meaning of an ordinary day, two days, three days, to say this is going to be a short time. Otherwise, if it meant long times, it would be meaningless, and it would not be a prophecy to the Jews.

Ross: Well, for the benefit of the audience, Hosea 6:2 says that Israel would be without a king for one day, and then two days, and then the king would be restored. And you just look at Israeli history. They’ve clearly been without a ruler for a couple of thousand years.

Kaiser: I give points to Hugh on that one, Ken, because the Day of the Lord, yom Yahweh, is the expression there, has a whole complex of events. Sure, it is the coming back of the Lord on the Mount of Olives. But that’s not the only one. So there is a point action there, but there also is a linear action, too. And in the same way, here with the Hosea 6:2-3, there is a speaking under the terms of day with a number along with it, which is what you asked for, and here it’s embodying the whole history of Israel. So I think we’re on the same side at that point. But a number with the word day can’t really be determinative, because we’ve got two instances, one in Hosea and one in Zechariah where they embody a group of events.

Ham: Can I say one thing?

Ankerberg: Hold on, guys. We’re out of time here. So we’ll pick it up. It’s a great conversation. Join us again next week.

Read Part 3