Former Mormons Testify – Program 4

By: Sandra Tanner, Marvin Cowan; ©1982

How has the Mormon church changed its teaching about Black people? What can a Mormon woman look forward to in eternity?

What Are Mormons Taught About Black People and About Women?

Introduction

You have probably heard about the Mormon Church. Their official name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Directing this worldwide church is a prophet who is also the president of the church. He is assisted by two counselors. They believe that just as there were twelve apostles in the primitive church, so today there should be twelve apostles in the Latter-day Saints church. Other leaders assist in administrative work, but altogether these men constitute the general authorities of the church. Their headquarters are in Salt Lake City, Utah. You have heard and marveled as their great choir sings, but what do they teach and believe about God, Jesus, and the Bible?

The guests today on The John Ankerberg Show are both former Mormons. First, Mrs. Sandra Tanner, the great-great granddaughter of Brigham Young. Sandra and her husband Jerald have written the massive book Mormonism–Shadow or Reality?, documenting the contradictions and errors they found in the Mormon scriptures. Sandra will reveal the evidence that led her away from Mormonism to the biblical view of Jesus.

John’s second guest is Marvin Cowan. Marvin was a zealous Mormon who one day was challenged to examine the claims of Mormonism. The evidence he investigated led him out of the Mormon Church and into a personal faith with the historic, biblical Jesus he had not known as a Mormon. He documents the evidence that led him to this conclusion in his book, Mormon Claims Answered.

Tonight, please join John for this exciting program.

[Ed. note: Throughout this series, Sandra Tanner refers to documentation that can be found in her book Mormonism–Shadow or Reality? available from Utah Lighthouse Ministry, PO Box 1884, Salt Lake City, UT 84110]

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Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. We have with us Marvin Cowan and we have Sandra Tanner, the great-great granddaughter of Brigham Young. And folks we want to start with something that has been in the news quite a bit, that we, as non-Mormons do not understand. And that is, there seems to be a controversy about Black people. Okay, can you start us off at the beginning and bring us up to speed right where we’re at right now in terms of Mormon doctrine concerning Black people? What did Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or the early prophets say about Black people? Why are they Black?

Tanner: Well, they believe that, in the pre-existence, some of God’s children weren’t as faithful as others and didn’t deserve to have the priesthood when they came to this earth. So God has said here’s a certain group of people that shouldn’t have priesthood on their earth experience. But the problem being, when we get down here we don’t remember the prior existence, so we don’t remember who God said doesn’t get it. So he said when Cain killed Abel, he put the mark of the Black skin and the negroid features and made them black to distinguish them. And from then on, all of these spirits who weren’t to get priesthood were to come through that line. So all you had to determine was that who was a descendant of Cain and you know which spirits don’t get the priesthood. So, here’s the statement by Brigham Young. This is in the Journal of Discourses. This is Volume 7.

Ankerberg: Before you read that, answer the question, why was it so important that they be included or excluded from the priesthood? What is the priesthood?

Tanner: Well, in order to progress to godhood, a Mormon has to hold the priesthood. This is all tied to the Temple ritual, the Melchizedek priesthood, where you have to become an elder to go through the Mormon Temple.

Ankerberg: In other words, you have to hold that office in your working to please God. To become God, you have to prove yourself; you have to hold that office.

Tanner: Right. So, by the Blacks not having the priesthood, it stopped their eternal progression. They could never reach the position of being a God.

Ankerberg: So you’re saying that the prophet said, through revelation, that God had excluded them because of what? What did they do?

Tanner: Well, they aren’t very clear on that. They just weren’t as faithful in pre-existence as others were.

Ankerberg: In other words, up there in Heaven someplace, or up there in Eternity, those spirit children…

Tanner: They did something that disqualified them.

Ankerberg: They did something that God didn’t like and so he made this fiat ruling, this command, that they couldn’t be in the priesthood, so they would never reach godhood.

Tanner: Right. And Brigham Young says, “How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them and they never can hold the priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last one of the residue of Adam’s children are brought up to that favorable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the priesthood. They were the first that were cursed and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed.”

However, we have in 1978, Spencer W. Kimball, changing the doctrine.

Ankerberg: He is the current president.^[1]

Tanner: Current prophet.

Ankerberg: Prophet.

Tanner: And he says he’s prayed about this. And because of all the problems that were being raised and contentions, that he supposedly got a revelation. So…

Ankerberg: So you had the first revelation that you just read that said they can’t be there…

Tanner: Never can be there.

Ankerberg: And now Kimball comes along in 1978 and says what?

Tanner: Okay, if you get a current Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, in it now is the statement on the Blacks, where Kimball says June 8, he says “Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us… in God’s eternal plan all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood.” That’s the catch phrase. So he’s now changed it to where all of the brethren who are worthy can hold the priesthood, where before it was all the brethren, other than Blacks, could hold the priesthood. So this is their statement, declaration, now stating—it doesn’t specifically say Blacks, but that’s what it’s about—that Blacks now can be included in the priesthood if they’re faithful.

Ankerberg: And they can become God now?

Tanner: Now they can go on into the Temple and do their Temple work and become a God. Prior to this revelation, this change, they couldn’t go to the Temple and be married for eternity.

Ankerberg: Alright, let me ask you a question. If now Blacks can make it, alright, can Blacks go into the Temple and be baptized or have something happen that is retroactive to those Black relatives of theirs that couldn’t make it before under Brigham Young?

Tanner: Yes. Now a Black can go and do his genealogy and take care of all the ones who got passed over by Brigham Young. However, Brigham Young said that everyone else had to have a chance first before the Blacks got the priesthood, so it’s an absolute contradiction.

Ankerberg: So you have contradictory revelation. God changed his mind in essence.

Tanner: Right. And this is the whole problem with Mormonism: that we go through all their doctrines and you can see time after time after time where God reverses himself all through. And to me, this isn’t the God of Christianity.

Ankerberg: You actually wrote another book on just the doctrines of Mormonism that have changed, haven’t you?

Tanner: Yes, I have a little pamphlet called The Bible and Mormon Doctrine that goes into all of their beliefs. Marv’s book goes into a lot of the changes in their doctrines also.

Ankerberg: Alright, let’s jump to another topic on this thing of women, okay. We’ve talked about the fact that you’ve got Father God and you’ve got Mother God, alright? And it’s understood that men can progress to godhood. Can women progress to God, to being a God, Mother God?

Tanner: They become a Goddess, but they are not worshipped or addressed in prayer or spoken to. In fact, most Mormons hardly ever refer to the Mother God. She’s sort of a shadowy figure, a second-class deity. She’s there, but her function in life is to have children. In fact, in the Mormon Sunday School manual that we showed on another program, it says in here that the primary, most important role of the woman is to have children. That is their view; because in the hereafter that is her whole job, is to have these 20 million children, or whatever, that are going to come to her husband’s earth.

Ankerberg: Can a woman attain being a Goddess if she’s not married?

Tanner: No. But a man can’t either without being married.

Ankerberg: Okay, so you’ve got to be married in order to be a God.

Tanner: Right.

Ankerberg: Okay, so this is why there’s such pressure on this thing about not being divorced in the Mormon Church?

Tanner: Yes. You want to keep this eternal marriage bond; if you go through the Temple you will have that mate for all eternity.

Ankerberg: So it’s not so much the fact of love for each other, as the fact that you’ve got an ulterior motive. You want to become God.

Tanner: Yes, you’ve got to have this eternal union. You have to have a mate in order to produce all these spirit children; you have to produce spirit children to start your earth.

Ankerberg: Did I read that you’ve got three stages of Heaven, and in the third stage where you can become God, if you don’t attain being a God or a Goddess, you become an angel?

Tanner: Yes.

Ankerberg: Now, the God or Goddess, if you reach that stage, you have can sex eternally. Correct?

Tanner: Yes.

Ankerberg: But if you are in the second or third stage down below it, you can’t have sex. Correct?

Tanner: That’s right. Mormons would say that there will be a change made in everyone’s body that doesn’t make the top of the top Mormon Heaven. And only the Mormons that have had Temple marriage will be able to have intercourse. Of course, the only point of the intercourse is to have these 20 million babies to start your own earth.

Ankerberg: Yes. From a woman’s perspective, if she becomes a Goddess, what does she have to look forward as being a Goddess?

Tanner: Eternal diaper changing, I guess.

Ankerberg: Okay, she’s going to go off and you’re going to create and populate your own world.

Tanner: Yes.

Ankerberg: And the gestation period is still nine months per kid?

Tanner: That’s what I’m told. The Mormons don’t really talk about this very much in their literature, but as you grow up in the Church, this is your understanding, that it will be a full-length pregnancy, full concept of the whole process.

Ankerberg: Do any of the women in the Mormon Church kind of rebel against this thing? Seems like the man has primary position.

Tanner: Yes, it’s a very hard thing, especially if you don’t want 20 million children.

Ankerberg: The other thing is, do Mormons still believe in polygamy?

Tanner: Yes, the Mormons still believe in polygamy. It’s still in the Doctrine and Covenants. It’s Section 132. It’s still in the Doctrine and Covenants today.

Ankerberg: Okay. Who started this thing of polygamy? In other words, who can have more than one wife?

Tanner: Joseph Smith started it. He originally started it in secret, though, and although he was secretly living it, he was openly…

Ankerberg: What do you mean he started it in secret? That he was just practicing it in secret? He was teaching it in secret? Or…

Tanner: Well, there were accusations made that he was having affairs with different women. Oliver Cowdery, who was one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon, accused Joseph Smith of having an adulterous affair with a girl named Fanny Alger. And there were these kinds of stories, charges, coming up in the Church. But there was a select group of people that Joseph Smith taught this doctrine, but it was not taught openly in the Church. So that I can show you statements in Church chronicles during Joseph Smith’s lifetime where he denied polygamy at the very time he was living it.

Ankerberg: He denied it, he lied about it, while he was living in it.

Tanner: Yes.

Ankerberg: Okay, then who made it formal? In other words, who made it doctrine?

Tanner: Well, Brigham Young was the first one to publicly teach it. Brigham Young announced it in 1852, was when the Church officially out in the open came out and said we believe in polygamy. But they’d been living it for years.

Ankerberg: By the way, doesn’t the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ, don’t they believe that Joseph Smith is their prophet as well?

Tanner: Yes. But they don’t accept polygamy. They base their stand on the printed testimony of Joseph Smith. They say, “Look, I can show you in Church records…”

Ankerberg: What do they do with his living record? In other words, what do they do with the fact that he actually lived that when they say you’re not supposed to?

Tanner: They just won’t believe any of the people’s accounts that he was living it. They say they were all unreliable witnesses and they won’t accept their testimony on it.

Ankerberg: Okay, Brigham Young made it official, printed wise; even though Joseph Smith was living polygamy while he was denying it. How many wives can a Mormon man have?

Tanner: No one knows for sure. Brigham Young had maybe 56 or so wives. But he didn’t have the most. There were Mormons with more.

Ankerberg: Can a Mormon woman have many men?

Tanner: No.

Ankerberg: Why not?

Tanner: Because the process, the whole point of polygamy was to have your spirit children faster so you could start your earth faster. So if a man has a hundred wives, he can get his babies born a hundred times faster.

Ankerberg: He can get his world populated quicker.

Tanner: Yes. But a woman can only have so many children no matter how many husbands she has.

Ankerberg: Because she’s got to have them.

Tanner: Right. So it only works in the one way; the man needs more wives.

Ankerberg: Alright, now that is actually doctrine or revelation that came through the prophets.

Tanner: Yes.

Ankerberg: Now, is it that way today?

Tanner: The Mormons do not believe in practicing it, but they still believe it. For instance: in my own family, my grandmother and grandfather were married in the Temple. My grandmother died; my grandfather remarried another woman who had never been married. They were married in the Temple. So, according to the Mormons, my grandfather will be a polygamist in Heaven because he’s been married to two women in the Temple. So, they believe that it’s a valid doctrine. People today still can be entering into a polygamist marriage if the husband is lucky enough to have his wife die first where he can marry another woman and have her sealed to him so that he will have those wives in the hereafter.

Ankerberg: What to they do with Scripture that says in Heaven there is neither marriage or giving in marriage? [Luke 20:35]

Tanner: They say that’s true, because the people Jesus was talking to were Pharisees, and they wouldn’t have gotten married in the Temple. So, of course, for them there will be no marriage in Heaven.

Ankerberg: So actually they have to go outside of Scripture to contradict that, because otherwise, it sounds like a blanket statement. You have to get another revelation. You go out to these other books.

Tanner: Right.

Ankerberg: Okay. Maybe some of you have some questions out here?

Audience: What I would like to ask about, or find out some information about, is this concept of Hell. If I don’t encompass any of the Mormon doctrines and I’m a murderer or anything like this, do I go to Hell? And if I do, what is Hell?

Tanner: Okay. In Mormonism when you die you will go to either Paradise or spirit prison—so that the Mormons go to Paradise and the bad guys go to the spirit prison, and that’s a form of Hell. You will be there for a thousand years, through the Millennium, until the resurrection for the judgment. And then at that time, you supposedly have been purged from your sins and are repentant, and then you will be able to go to one of the Mormon Heavens. If you had been a murderer, that means you would go to the Telestial Kingdom, the bottom level of Heaven. If you were just a nice Protestant but you never embraced Mormonism, then you will go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

Audience: But there is no eternal punishment as such.

Tanner: Well, only for a few. They believe that there is a group called Sons of Perdition that have eternal Hell, and that would be, of course, Lucifer and Cain and Judas. People who have had direct revelation of Jesus Christ and then denied it, then they can go to eternal Hell, but most people don’t.

Ankerberg: How did Lucifer and Jesus, apparently they were brothers…

Tanner: Yes.

Ankerberg: What was the split? How did Lucifer become the Devil? What’s the story?

Tanner: Well, when God was ready to start his earth, he called a council meeting of all the family, that was all of us and Jesus and our brother, Lucifer. We were all there and Jesus and Lucifer were both proposing their plans for running the earth.

Ankerberg: According to Mormon teaching now.

Tanner: Yes. And Jesus and God agreed that they wanted to send everyone to earth with free-agency and only those who choose to obey would come back to the Father’s presence, while Lucifer said, “Let’s send them all to earth and I’ll make sure they all obey and I’ll make sure everyone comes back to Heaven.” And God said, “No, I’m going this other route and Jesus is going to be my Savior for the earth.” Lucifer rebelled and got one-third of God’s family to rebel; and they termed this “The War in Heaven.” And Lucifer and one-third of God’s children made war on the other two-thirds. To stop it, God cast out Lucifer and the one-third of his children and they become the evil forces on this earth.

Ankerberg: Okay.

Audience: This may be just a little ludicrous, but again I guess it’s not. It’s not one about one of the deeper doctrines, but I read that Joseph Smith when he was a prophet, made the statement that the moon was inhabited with beings, and he went into great detail to describe these people. And, of course, our astronauts went up there and landed on the Moon. And the fellow who got out on the Moon couldn’t even find anyone to play golf with and the rest of the time the other guy was going around the Moon and he never saw anybody. So what do they say about that, since he claimed to be the prophet of God and what he says is inspired of God?

Ankerberg: Do they actually claim that?

Tanner: Mormons today aren’t aware that Joseph made that claim. But in our book I have a photograph, this is from the Young Women’s Journal, which was a Mormon Church publication, and this is printed in 1892. This is a Church article in a Church magazine by a prominent Church leader who knew Joseph Smith. And he recounts in here about Joseph Smith telling him about the men on the Moon. And he says, “Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have in one way or another either directly or indirectly contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet.” So you see this man’s favorable to Joseph Smith.

As far back as 1837 I know that he said the Moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth and that they live to a greater age than we do, that they live generally to near the age of a thousand years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.

And then he goes on to talk about, he was promised that when he got to a certain age, he would go out and preach the gospel and that came true. He had also been promised that he would one day go to the Moon and teach to the inhabitants there. And since the first promise had been fulfilled, he was sure of the second promise. Now, it’s not recorded that he ever went, but this was a faithful follower of Joseph Smith, giving his reminiscences of the prophet and he said that he was taught this.

Ankerberg: What do Mormons say when you show that stuff to them?

Tanner: They don’t know quite what to say. They probably would argue, something to the effect that they never heard of the Young Women’s Journal: How do I know that was a Church publication?

Audience: A little earlier we were talking with you privately, Sandra, about how you approach Mormons with the way of salvation, and what is the best way. But what I would like to ask is, how do you approach someone who has professed to be a Christian and has been a member of a denominational church and then becomes a Mormon, and is very, very active in the Mormon Church? If you’re concerned about this person as a member of your family or whatsoever, how do you go about talking to them about salvation?

Ankerberg: Good question!

Tanner: Well, it’s really hard. If the person does not want to consider any of the evidence, you can’t force it down their throat. But you have to try to challenge them that truth will stand up to investigation. If what you believe is really true, you have no reason to fear looking at what I would consider to be problem areas—if it’s really true. So that, I try to challenge a Mormon that, if he really has a testimony that the Church is true, then he will be able to tell me where I am wrong and he will be able to show me that my quotes are out of context, that they’re misleading, or whatever. He’ll be able to show those things. Now I’ve documented for him where the problems are at, could they show me that that’s wrong? But you have to some way try to get them to think this through. If it’s true, it should all fit together. I’m not afraid to have them look at the Bible. I’d be glad to sit down and talk to them about the Bible. Why aren’t they willing to sit down and talk with me about their faith and to explain to me what I see are problems in it.

Ankerberg: What did you answer when you talk with a Mormon and they say, well, the Bible has corruptions and so that’s not the truth?

Tanner: Then I have to challenge them on the basis, “Can you give me an example? Can you show me where it’s changed? Where has a teaching been obliterated or misconstrued or left out or corrupted?” We can go back to the Greek manuscripts and establish what the Bible taught back to 200 AD. And it taught the same thing then that it teaches now. So the Mormon doesn’t realize he’s just parroting what he’s always been told. He has to be challenged that you can’t document this problem with the Bible that you keep talking about. Have you ever stopped to think about this? Where are the problems? How has it changed? Who changed it? When was it changed? Can you give me any examples of this?

Ankerberg: The Dead Sea Scrolls brought us back a thousand years in textual criticism when we found out that the texts were almost exact. So there’s no problem there.

Audience: Where does the doctrine of vicarious baptism come from that the Mormons preach?

Cowan: They use 1 Corinthians 15:29 in the Bible as a launching pad. “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?” And that, along with the Doctrine and Covenants. They have some sections in there that explain baptism for the dead in more detail. But they start with the Bible, because we believe the Bible. And if they are dealing with non-Mormons, they always like to start with the Bible. Of course, that passage isn’t really saying that Paul was teaching baptism for the dead. In fact, the very next verse, verse 30, Paul excludes himself. “And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?” In verse 29, “Why are they baptizing for the dead?” It seems to me he’s indicating there’s a difference between those that are doing that and those that were with him as Christians. But that’s where they would launch out from, would be 1 Corinthians 15:29.

Ankerberg: How many people have the Mormon Church baptized by proxy?

Cowan: I don’t know what the current number is. We were looking today, and the latest figures I had was 1979, and there were awfully close to four million, I believe, proxy baptisms.

Ankerberg: If you have some Mormon people that are looking in that are saying, “Hey, I am disillusioned. I have questions.” What would you tell them to do to answer their questions, and at the same time, not just give up all faith at all?

Tanner: Well, I would say they need to look into the historical foundation for the Bible. Don’t just throw it out because you’re told it’s not reliable. Look into it. It will stand investigation. What about your own faith? I can document where the problems are in Mormonism. I can also document where the Bible is reliable. There is faith in Christ. He is true and he is sufficient for your life. But the Mormon becomes disillusioned. They think, “Oh, well, if Mormonism isn’t true, there’s just nothing out there.” And Marv and I both can attest that we found a satisfaction in Christ we never had as a Mormon.

Ankerberg: One final question. The Mormon Church calls itself the Church of Jesus Christ. What does Jesus do for you now that he didn’t do for you when you were inside the Mormon Church? What is he to you now that he wasn’t inside the Mormon church?

Tanner: Now He is my full salvation. Where before he was just a partial incentive in my life, now he is the whole thing. He gives me his righteousness that’s imputed to me, not righteousness I’ve earned or worked up on my own. So he is my all and all now. He is my sufficiency in all things. I can stand before God because of what he did on the cross.

Ankerberg: Marv?

Cowan: Well, I have a different Jesus, now, to start with. Like Paul mentions in 2 Corinthians 11:4, “Some might come preaching another Jesus,” and I believe the Jesus of Mormonism really is. Now the average Mormon like myself thought or thinks that it’s the Jesus of the Bible, but the Jesus I worship now isn’t a spirit brother of Lucifer and “a” God and so forth. So what he does now is give me real peace with God; he’s my one mediator. [1 Tim. 2:5] Before I had all kinds of things that actually functioned in kind of a mediatorial position. Now Jesus Christ is my all and all. I am complete in him, as Colossians 2:10 says. And in Mormonism I never was complete. So that’s what I’ve found in Christ.

Tanner: Also, you never have assurance of salvation as a Mormon in the ultimate sense. You can’t know that you have eternal life until you get up there, because you’ve got to work at it all your life. But as a Christian we have the assurance that we can know we have eternal life.

Ankerberg: And with that we want to say thank you. We thank you for all this information and for your lives that God has wonderfully changed. Thank you for being with us.

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Notes

1. ↑ Spencer Kimball died in 1985. He was followed by Ezra Taft Benson (died 1994), Howard W. Hunter (died 1995) and Gordon B. Hinckley (died 2008). The current president is Thomas S. Monson.