The Seduction of Christianity – Program 7

By: Johanna Michaelson, Dave Hunt; ©1985

Aren’t you missing out if you haven’t had one of these fantastic experiences others have had? Are you limiting yourself and your potential if you don’t seek them out?

Is That All There Is?

Ankerberg: Welcome! Welcome to our program tonight. You know, ever since Shirley MacLaine wrote her book, Out on a Limb, as well as some of the popular magazines have picked up some of the stories that she has written, there seems to be a widespread feeling across America that psychic occurrences and miraculous happenings and out-of-body experiences are just kind of passé—that’s just everyday happening, you know. And you’re limited if you haven’t had one of those experiences. And, “Here, let me give you five techniques in how you ought to get one,” alright? We’re talking with a lady who went through all of that, and you will see a little bit about her book a little bit later on. It’s called The Beautiful Side of Evil. Johanna Michaelsen is our guest tonight. She is telling us how she came into having her mystical experiences, having a spirit guide that she herself picked out. And, Johanna, let’s go back on that story and tell the folks how you got into it, as a college graduate, and all the things that you experienced, the “beautiful side of evil,” if you want to call it that.

Michaelsen: Well, for many, many years, the “forces” that were around—and I was very cognizant of them—manipulated me at will, and left me wondering if I was losing my mind. I know there are many people who see figures on the side of their bed or hear voices or know what’s going to happen or see bizarre things coming at them in the middle of the night. And they wonder if they are losing their minds or just plain hallucinating. But those things can be very, very real. I’m not saying that every manifestation like that is, but there is….

Ankerberg: Let stop here and let me say this. We have never done a program like this. Because there are a lot of people who usually watch the program and will say, “Ankerberg, you have flipped right out here to do this program on the supernatural and to come in on the occult this strong.” Let me tell them the reason that we have done this, so that you can continue, so they don’t think somebody else showed up this week to be the host. The reason we’re doing it is because of the mail you [the audience] have sent in. Enough of you have said that you are involved in these kinds of things that we wanted to hit it head on and talk about it. And we wanted to put a biblical perspective to what we’re talking about. Our guests on the program tonight can do this very well. Johanna, continue.

Michaelsen: The long and the short of it is that I needed something to give me a sense of control. I didn’t know what that was. And I blundered into a course called Silva Mind Control, which is teaching you how to gain mastery over yourself, over your alpha brainwaves. Through this course we were introduced to counselors. I, being a Christian—I accepted the Lord as my Savior my freshman year in college—asked for Jesus. What better guide can you have? So I eventually wound up considering Him my guru, my spirit guide, the greatest medium from the Seventh Sphere. He was my “Jesus” as I imagined Him to be. After all, what difference does it make how you image Him; as long as He is there, you’ve got the real One. That’s what I thought.

Ankerberg: When you say “counselor” what did you mean?

Michaelsen: Well, someone who would be with me at all times; whom I could conjure at will, who would be there to give me information that I could not otherwise obtain.

Ankerberg: Like in Star Wars?

Michaelsen: “The Force” of Star Wars is much like that, because it was deliberately giving a religious perspective there. And we’re indoctrinating millions of people, and especially the children, into how to deal with these “neutral forces.”

Hunt: It would be like Obi-Wan after he died.

Michaelsen: That’s right. After he died he came back and he was guiding Lucas; you know, when he said, “If I die here, I’ll come back in even greater power.”

Ankerberg: So that’s the kind of counselor you are talking about.

Michaelsen: That’s the kind of counselor we are talking about. Lucas had Obi-Wan Kenobi,…

Ankerberg: And you picked “Jesus.”

Michaelsen: Mine was “Jesus.”

Hunt: And eventually Darth Vader became one of those, too, didn’t he?

Michaelsen: That’s right. Eventually Darth Vader did, too. It’ll be fun to see what else comes down that pike.

Ankerberg: Keep going.

Michaelsen: But in any case, through these people in Mind Control I met a woman in Mexico City who [was] one of the few genuine psychic surgeons. And, John, she did things that defy description. That most people would say, “Look, Johanna, you had to be hypnotized. Maybe you’re lying. Who knows what ulterior motive you have?” You know, one book came out from the Christian perspective implying that anybody who sees this kind of thing is lying, or deluded, as another book has recently said. But, John, all I can tell you is I had my hands in it. I was with this woman sometimes from early morning working through, making herbal preparations, grinding up snakes and what-not, visiting with people who had come for spiritual advice and counsel and then for the evening sessions, which is when she did the actual operations. I am the one who set things up.

Ankerberg: Okay, now, this is a lady about how old?

Michaelsen: Pachita, at that time, I don’t know; she was in her early to mid-70s. I forget exactly how old at that time.

Ankerberg: Okay, and she would put herself into a trance?

Michaelsen: She would sit down in front of this altar. Her people….

Ankerberg: A crucifix on the altar.

Michaelsen: A crucifix on the altar; the picture of Jesus. She would sit down and take deep breaths, relax, put herself into her own trance state. And the spirit would come and take over. From that point on she was no longer referred to as Pachita, it is now Hermanito, “Little Brother.” Full masculine traits.

Ankerberg: Male figure….

Michaelsen: Her eyes were tightly shut. I once watched her thread a needle with her eyes tightly shut. I can’t do it with my eyes open! And in that state, she would perform literal physical operations on certain individuals who had been selected over a period of time, who were told they had operations that needed to take place. The patients, for example,… Well, let me give you one that took place on a surgeon. There was a medical doctor who was there as her assistant. After the operations, he would stand back and say, “I can’t believe what I saw. It usually takes me hours.”

Ankerberg: Fully qualified medical surgeon was down there helping her?

Michaelsen: An actual medical surgeon. He had his own practice in Mexico City at the time. Pachita/“Hermanito” always had two helpers, a male on one side of the cot and a female—for about 14 months myself, as often as I could get into the city—assisting. And I would set up the cotton, the implements that were to be used—primarily a rusty hunting knife and a pair of scissors. The spirit would come and the operations would commence. The patient would come and stretch out on the cot, bare whatever section of his anatomy needed the operation. The only concession to antiseptics was a bit of cotton that was rubbed on the section; new cotton from a bottle they brought. And, you know, John, what can I tell you? I did not go buy chicken gizzards at the market across the street. She was not putting little bits of mica underneath her fingernails through which superficial cuts were made. I was not hypnotized. I had my eyes open. I stopped counting when I had assisted in over 200 operations—everything from inoperable brain tumors to lung transplants, which Andre Puharich, who researched a book on Arigo, another psychic surgeon in Brazil, and other psychics who do research, he said, “She’s probably one of the greatest psychics,” because he assisted in an operation in which she did an actual transplant.

Hunt: Let me just jump in and say, Andre Puharich, who brought Uri Geller here also is a brilliant medical scientist with about 60 patents to his credit.

Michaelsen: Someone not easily deluded, despite what the skeptics would say.

Ankerberg: Okay. Keep going.

Michaelsen: I stopped counting at 200 of these operations. John, I had my hands in them. I had blood up to my forearms.

Ankerberg: Let’s tell them what actually you saw. Go ahead.

Michaelsen: Alright. There was one operation in which I assisted in a lung transplant.

Ankerberg: What took place?

Michaelsen: Well, the woman was stretched out on a cot on a sheet that she had brought. The spirit took the pair of scissors, raised them in a salute to whatever force he was raising it, plunged them into the woman’s body, cut deeply into the flesh, had me part the cavity to one side. And I could feel the blood pulsing over my hands. Then, Pachita/Hermanito—so you don’t get confused, the spirit—brought out a dirty red handkerchief with a piece of lung. Sometimes we got the parts from cadavers. She had friends in the morgue in town. Sometimes it was animal parts. Frankly, psychic surgeons will tell you, “It doesn’t matter what piece you’re using. It really doesn’t.” But doctors have taken blood samples and verified them to be that of the patients. Something was taking place there. She took this lung, dirty red rag and all, John, and slipped it into the woman’s chest cavity, then passed the hand, his hand, over the woman’s chest and it closed instantly. Not many people knew that that’s what happened. We bound the woman up in a bandage that she had brought, with cotton underneath, gave her instructions for three days, and the woman was healed. Now, I have documented many operations….

Hunt: What was the woman’s problem?

Michaelsen: She had degenerative lung condition. That’s all we knew. A little boy, who was born dumb, who couldn’t speak, Hermanito opened up his throat, pulled out a hairy rock, materialized—I mean, you don’t walk around with hairy rocks in your throat, right? The spirits materialized this, removed it, and that little boy said his first words, ever! My father was assisting in that operation. The doctor himself that I was telling you about, the surgeon with his practice there, he had a hernia operation. My father was there for this one, too. And he was describing in medical terminology, “Yes, I can feel, now, Hermanito. You’ve cut through this layer and that layer. And, yes, you’ve reached it; that’s where the pain was.” I gave him the needle and thread which Hermanito had threaded previously, sewed it up and two hours later the doctor drove himself home, perfectly healed of his hernia. An accountant, who has given me a notarized certificate of his operation, who said, “Yes, I had this huge lump there.” And I had seen it before and he is a personal friend of my family’s. After the operation, the lump was gone.

Ankerberg: You have documented these things in your book, not in the sense that you had photographs and so on, but you kept a diary while you were going along, just your everyday diary. And I think you ought to tell the people who, after you came to know the Lord and came out of this—which we’re going to tell in a moment—who it was that encouraged you to go back in that diary and helped you put these things into the book.

Michaelsen: Well, that was Dr. Walter Martin. I met Dr. Martin in Mexico in 1973 during a Bible conference. I had become a Christian in 1972, in November. And I met him; I told him my story, and he said, about a month or so later, “You know what? We need to document this. We need to put a book out.” So, it’s because of his instigation….

Ankerberg: At the Christian Research Institute. Most people in Evangelical Christianity know Dr. Walter Martin. And also, Hal Lindsay encouraged you and actually wrote the foreword to your book after being with you and talking to you and listening and checking with other people. And he actually says that when he first heard it he couldn’t believe it and he had to check around, okay. I just wanted people to hear that, okay. So you were doing all of these things. What was happening in your mind? Because the spirit had told you that you were the one that was going to be picked to take over this psychic surgeon’s place when she passed off the scene. That was going to be your job. You were thrilled to be able to have that high honor because you thought you were going to help people, okay? What happened then?

Michaelsen: Well, I did not become a full trance medium.

Ankerberg: Why?

Michaelsen: That’s an interesting question. I think it’s because the Holy Spirit was interfering. There was one night I was assisting in an operation and all of a sudden the spirit looked up with the one flash of hatred I had ever seen on his face toward me and said, “Get her out of here! She needs a limpia, a cleansing!” And then he mumbled under his breath, “Even though there’s a greater Spirit looking after her.” And he said it with such venom it startled me. I didn’t know what that meant until in retrospect.

Ankerberg: And you didn’t know what it meant.

Michaelsen: I’m sure now it was the Holy Spirit who was protecting His exceedingly dumb child.

Ankerberg: Why was it that you finally left Mexico City to take a break?

Michaelsen: Well, the main reason was that I felt I needed to put some distance between myself and the activities that were going on there.

Ankerberg: Why?

Michaelsen: Because I wanted to see if maybe in a different location I could be more centered so that I could get in tune with the spirit guides. I could see them; I couldn’t understand why they weren’t taking possession in full trance.

Ankerberg: So the reason you left was because you had been promised to be this full-fledged trance medium, if you want, and it wasn’t taking place.

Michaelsen: Yes, and a number of other discrepancies, as well, John. So I went to Switzerland. Well, Switzerland is a ways down. But in any case, let me just get to Switzerland. I decided the best place to get away was England, the Tutankhamen Exhibit was on there. So I went to England, wandered around for two months having very bizarre, frightening experiences. Finally, I went to see my sister in Italy. She was a committed, born again believer at the time. And she said to me….

Ankerberg: And you were afraid that she was going to talk to you about the Lord, and she did!

Michaelsen: Well, you know, she sure did. And what she did was exceedingly obnoxious to me at the time. She asked me questions. “Johanna, how do you know that the guides who are coming to you, that the ones you are seeing working through Pachita are the ones they claim to be?” “Well, it’s miraculous!” “Yeah, but how do you know? Is it possible that there are some miracles that are not from God?” A whole bunch of questions that she asked me.

Ankerberg: And she was smart enough to say that you could have all the miracles there—she believed in the miracles. She just said, “Check the source.”

Michaelsen: Well, yeah.

Ankerberg: And that’s what bothered you?

Michaelsen: The question that came to my mind was, “Is it possible that I’m wrong?” With all the barrage of questions that she asked me about reincarnation, about the cosmic consciousness, about all of these things; yoga, which I was teaching at the time. Basically, what sifted down into my mind was, “Is it possible I’m wrong?” And I prayed, I said, “Lord Jesus, you know more than anything else I want to serve you. I believe that this is what you are: my guru, spirit guide, etc. But if she’s right, if there’s something else, I want to know, and I’m willing to give up all of this I’m involved with if you prove to me you’re right. But you better show me, God.”

Ankerberg: So then what happened?

Michaelsen: I wound up at a place called L’Abri. Dr. Frances Schaffer, one of the great theologians of our age, who has since gone home to be with the Lord, was there. And I had a run-in with him before. I thought he was very narrow-minded, very dogmatic. And I’m afraid I came pretty close to insulting Edith Schaffer. The Lord bless her for her patience. But I told my sister, I said, “Kim, look, if one narrow-minded, Bible-thumping dogmatistic evangelist tries to convert me, I’m leaving! I don’t want to put up with that at this Christian center.” She said, “Go and find out.” So I went. I spoke to Dr. Os Guinness, the author of The Dust of Death, who was compiling his book at that time. Even he couldn’t get through to me. But I will tell you, more than anything else I wanted know. And I said, “God, show me.”

The long and the short of many experiences and many demonic battles that I had, although I didn’t recognize them as such, was one night when I was on my way to Birdie’s chalet. Birdie was one of the counselors with whom I was sharing. Thinking about something totally irrelevant, suddenly, John, out of the literally clear blue sky, this blackness enveloped me and I heard voices whispering in my ear, in my right ear. And a cold chilled breath on the side of my neck; and a presence of evil like I’d never felt. And believe me, I had felt some during my college years; but when I began working with a medium, when I began working with Mind Control, I would simply center myself, call on my good guide, surround myself in the “white light” of Jesus, and these things would leave. I thought I had it made. But here it was, and I couldn’t conjure it away!

I tried calling on the name of my guide, “Jesus.” “He can’t help you! We’re going to kill you!” the voices shrieked. And I was trying to call on Cuauhtemoc, Pachita’s guide, and they shrieked even louder, and I broke into a panic. I started to run, in the darkness. And suddenly, John, what I can only describe as a fist came through, hit me in the back, pitched me forward. I couldn’t even call on the name of Jesus at this point. But the Lord knew and He rescued me from that. I ran into the counselor’s room, Birdie. She said, “What’s the matter with you?” I was covered with mud. Took me into a little room to pray for me. I couldn’t even hear her. We were swept up in a giant whirlwind somehow in my mind. Her voice was far away. And suddenly I heard voices to my left, John. There was a little window to my left, kind of where you’re sitting there, Dave, and I could see the faces of demons outside that window shrieking in a rage I’d never experienced before. And you know what?

Ankerberg: That was the first time you saw what the real faces were.

Michaelsen: I knew instantly and in a flash, as clearly as I knew anything at all, that these faces were manifesting in response to my wanting to know the truth as the source behind the medium with whom I was working. God took the veil aside, and instead of these “angels of light” that I was seeing manifested, those true beings were out there shrieking in an indescribable rage. And I knew that that rage was over my potential decision to accept Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Jesus of the Bible as He says He is, instead of as I had subtly come to redefine Him to be. I was using all the terminology of Christianity, but I had redefined it so that you would never recognize it as the Jesus of the Bible if you really pinned me down to it. And I gasped. Birdie look out that window and commanded them to depart in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and they left. And I said, “You know what? That’s the Jesus I want to get to know. I don’t have a lot of answers; I still don’t know about reincarnation; I still don’t understand about all these things—the Ouija board and all of that—but I know one thing: that Jesus had reality, and mine left me hanging in the lurch.” That’s the one I wanted to get to know.

Ankerberg: So how did you get to know the real Jesus?

Michaelsen: Well, two days later, Os Guinness and Sheila Byrd and I gathered together, and I prayed and accepted Him. And then the battle began. Then I had to go home and face the demons in the house. Then I had to struggle through, “Well, is Mind Control a neutral technique, as, at that point, maybe they thought it was at L’Abri, or is it demonic?” I went through a long period of struggling. But you know what I said? I said, “If there is a personal living God, and if He has said something to me in guiding me through this life now, then He said something about the activities I had been involved with.”

And I began to look through Scripture and I came across passage after passage that made my blood run cold. For example, the Levitical passages. Well, let me give you Deuteronomy 18 first, where the Lord there, speaking through Moses to the children of Israel, covers the full gamut of occult activity, ranging from superstitions, to fortunetelling, which includes palm reading, astrology, Ouija boards, the I-Ching, the tarot cards, hundreds of different forms of seeking into the future for information, the practices of magic, the practices of mediumship and spiritism. It covers the full gamut of occultism and calls it “abomination.” [Deut 18:9-12] Evidently, regardless of how sincere you were or not was irrelevant. All of it was labeled “abomination,” including the mediums and the spiritists and the ones who call up the dead. And I said, “That’s what I’ve been doing!” I’ve been working with the medium.

And then in Leviticus, where the Lord gave specific commandments in Leviticus 19:31, for example, where He says, “Do not turn to the mediums or the spiritists. Do not seek them out to be defiled by them,” and then He gives us the reason for that “narrow-minded, bigoted statement”—“I am the Lord your God.”

Ankerberg: For people who are watching and that their story is exactly your story, and they’re saying, “Johanna, I can’t go to Switzerland. How do I find the real Jesus? I don’t know if I’m deceived or not, but I’ve got doubts, and I want to know for sure.” What would you suggest?

Michaelsen: I would say the first thing is, do you really want to know the truth? The second thing you need to do is find out which Jesus you are following. Is the God of the Bible real? Which Jesus are you talking about? Are you talking about God the Son, Second Person of the Trinity, God Incarnate in human flesh, who lived a sinless life, died upon the cross for the redemption of mankind, for your sins? The One who died in the flesh, who arose in the flesh, who ascended into Heaven? Or are you talking about another “Jesus,” another spirit, another gospel?

The second thing that you need to look at is, what does the Bible have to say about it? It’s not enough for you to say, “Well, my psychic power has to be from God. I’m using it for good, and, after all, I’m seeing Jesus.” If the Bible is categorically condemning occult activity, spiritism, witchcraft, necromancy, astrology, etc., in the Scriptures, then He’s not going to turn around in the New Testament and change His mind. So you need to recognize that what you have been practicing is abomination.

What do you do about that? First of all, you confess it to the Lord. You say, “God, I confess to you.” I didn’t know it. I was sincere. I was just joking when I was playing around with the Ouija board when I was four, five and six years old. I didn’t mean it when I was trying to call down spirits and promised to give them myself if they would give me power. I was just joking.” Guess what? They’re not joking. They’re not joking. But if you confess it, if you renounce it, which legally shuts the door on Satan, officially turn your back on it and say, “Satan, I renounce you in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I will no longer have anything to do with this,” then the Lord has said that He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, to cleanse us. [1 John 1:9]

Then learn the principles of fighting spiritual warfare. Study the Word. Get involved in a church that understands spiritual warfare, because if you’ve been involved in the occult, you’re going to have warfare. You’re going to come under attack. But know this, “The Son of God appeared for this purpose: that He might destroy the works of the devil.” [1 John 3:8] That He might destroy the works of the devil. That’s what you need to understand. He made a public display of Satan on the cross, it tells us in Colossians 2:15.

And if you commit your life to this Jesus, if you understand your position in Him, then on the basis of that authority, not your self-esteem, not your positive imaging, not your mental powers, not your latent natural abilities, but on the basis of His shed blood on the cross, you can take authority over those beings and even command them in the name of the Lord Jesus to depart from you, and they will.

Ankerberg: And also the fact that you are tied to that via your family. Renounce that, and all the ties….

Michaelsen: Four ways it comes down. One is through inheritance, alright? “The sins of the fathers are visited on the children to the third and fourth generation.” [Ex. 20:5] The second way is by the laying on of hands. I think that’s one reason Scripture tell us, “Don’t lay hands on people too quickly.” [1 Tim. 5:22] Powerful mediums can transfer their occult abilities to people through the laying on of hands. Another way is through experimentation. And you say, “Oh, I wasn’t involved in the occult!” By which we mean, “I ain’t no Satan worshiper!” I had one young man tell me that. Satan couldn’t care less. He is the ultimate legalist.

Ankerberg: If you open the door to him, he’ll take advantage.

Michaelsen: If you open the door, he’ll take advantage. He is the ultimate legalist—you know, like the Russians. You may be flying over their territory and you may very sincere, but they’re still going to shoot you down, right? They’ve given us ample proof of that. Satan will do the same thing. You trespass on his territory that God has warned you about, and called “abomination,” and you’re open to it. Didn’t the Lord say to us, “When they say to you, consult the mediums who chirp and mutter: should not a people consult their God? should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?” [Isa. 8:19] And He says, “To the law and to the testimony: if they don’t speak according to this word, there is no truth in them.” [Isa. 8:20]

Ankerberg: Quickly, what’s the fourth one?

Michaelsen: The fourth one is “devil subscription,” as many of the heavy metal rock bands of today are doing. “Satan, we give you our soul—now you give us popularity! You give us money! You give us power!” And that’s happening today. And our young people are flocking to Satanism now in unprecedented….

Ankerberg: And if they’ve done that and they’ve been involved in that, do what?

Michaelsen: To confess it; to renounce it; to learn how to fight spiritual warfare; to study the Scriptures. Know who and what you are in Christ and to stick to this as close as you can.

Ankerberg: And invite the real Jesus into your life.

Michaelsen: And invite the real Jesus to come into your life. It’s not enough to use the name “Jesus.” There is another “Jesus,” another “Spirit” another “Gospel.” [2 Cor. 11:4] In Mexico everybody and his cousin’s uncle is named “Jesus.” And I was born and raised there. We had a gardener named “Jesus Joseph Mary!” Try that one on sometime. And you can stand there and call, “Oh, Jesus,” all day long: you’re not going to even get your hedge clipped at that rate. What “Jesus” are you calling on? That’s the key issue.

Ankerberg: Okay. Join us next week. We’re going to have questions from the audience on all that you’ve heard. Thanks for being with us this week

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