Astrology: True or False ā Program 4
| October 7, 2013 |
By: Tom Warneke, Maxine Taylor, Karen Winterburn, Dr. John Weldon, Dr. Walter Martin; ©1988 |
Do many astrologers depend on spirit guides? Could the spirit guides prove dangerous to the astrologer and to the client either through giving bad information or though spiritual oppression? |
What Kinds of Powers Do Some Astrologers Utilize?
- Ankerberg: Let me ask you this: Have you ever looked at a horoscope? Have you ever checked out what the stars are supposed to say about your life for the day? According to some of the statistics Iām reading, 40 million Americans dabble in astrology. And what weāre talking about with five different people here on the program is, is astrology credible? What is the scientific evidence? In the last weeks of time weāve started with basic definitions of astrology and then worked into some very interesting things, but let me just give you a short-hand one here. āAstrology is the study of the heavens and the influence they exert upon the lives and affairs of humanity.ā Then, we found out that there are some astrologers that donāt use just the basic charts. They have picked up spirit guides along the way so that a fellow like Strohmer in his book says, āAs we look honestly at astrologyāā and this is a professional astrologerāāwe begin to see that adherents of this system, without knowing it, are banging on the door through which communication is established with knowledgeable yet deceptive spirit beings. Eventually that door opens, and that opening produces an appalling development in the adherentās life. He or she matures in the craft in a most unthought of mannerāas a spirit medium.ā And, Karen, thatās basically what happened to you, isnāt it?
- Winterburn: Well, in actuality it was a demonāa spirit guide. Again, there are many ways toā¦.
- Ankerberg: And you made promises to your helper, didnāt you?
- Winterburn: Yes.
- Ankerberg: What kind of promises did you make?
- Winterburn: Well, I guess they were commitments more than promises. And this entity worked with me for a year and a half. And there were two of them. She was a wonderful spirit guide. She was very loving. The information that she gave me and the ways in which she helped me see my situation, I think, were instrumental in saving my marriage at one point. She gave me much accurate information to help friends. She also helped me to understand that as we are evolving into God, such distinctions as good and evil are inconsequential, therefore, Christians and people who, you know, are not as far along on the path. Such distinctions as truth and falsehood are inconsequential because Godāand this is the Jungian view, especially if you read his work Seven Sermons to the Deadābecause God subsumes in himself all polarities. He is above good and evil. He is above truth and falsehood. And the farther you are along on this path, the less consequential those distinctions are to you. This filters down into the daily life.
- Ankerberg: Okay, the bottom lineābecause I want to come back to Terry hereāthe bottom line for you though, was that spirit guide good or bad for you?
- Winterburn: In the end bad, although she seemed terrific at the time and she gave me many wonderful experiences.
- Ankerberg: Letās come back to that story later, but the fact is, what I want to get to is that you donāt deny the fact that many astrologers are using spirit guides. Weāve got the literature full of them. But you arenāt coming from that direction, is that correct?
- Warneke: Okay, well, first of all, I donāt agree with it. The way that itās been defined here, thatās not even the way I see it particularly as being practiced. I think a lot of times we see a clever twisting of words. But be that as it may, define it as you will, itās not something that I do. Itās not something that I have the ability to do. For example, I donāt channel any entities. Iām very dubious aboutā¦. And I think I speak, for example, of Jeff Green, probably one of the single greatest astrologers today. He said, āLetās face it. Probably nine out of every ten people that claim to be channeling entities, theyāre not channeling positive or negative entities, theyāre not channeling entities at all. Theyāre just taking your money.ā Now, weāre not saying that this is impossible. If Iāve never channeled an entity, how can I say whether itās possible or not if Iāve never had that personal experience?
- Ankerberg: I agree. I would like to have a guess from you as to why you think that so many astrologers are going that direction?
- Warneke: Well, first of all, Iāve been in astrology for about over 20 years. And during that 20 yearsā time, very few of those years has this particular concept been around. I think there are fads within astrology just as there are fads within the sciences and fads within any place else in life. And I think recently thereās been a channeling fad. And youāve noticed it. Youāve seen all of a sudden everybodyās channeling, but they werenāt a couple of years ago. And itās not just in astrology. Itās not just the astrology people. Probably most of the channelers have absolutely nothing to do with astrology. Astrology is probably too complicated and detailed for them to get into, so I think that probably a lot of them are not on the up and up. But I donāt think, as a lot of your guests probably think here, that this is some sort of evil plot to take over the world; that theyāre channeling demonic spirits or something like that. Iām not even here to make that judgment. I think in most cases this is probably just a case of somebody trying to perhaps separate you from your money. And I think we have to realize that it goes on in every profession. These people have attacked particular astrologers that make some pretty bizarre claims rather than looking at the whole body of astrologers. I think we could do the same thing within Christianity that has come up very much lately.
- Ankerberg: Alright, letās do it. Dr. Weldon, youāve written in your book, āAstrology is a proven occult art,ā and Iāve only got a minute and a half. So condense it, okay? āAstrology is a proven occult art by virtue of its many connections to numerous other forms of occultism.ā āAstrology is a potential introduction to a much wider practice of occult activity.ā Prove it, and what do you mean?
- Weldon: Well, I think first of all that historically there is a much deeper tie-in to spiritism than has been suggested. Even Ptolemy stated, āThey only who are inspired by the deityā or God ācan predict particulars.ā In 16th and 17th century England, astrologers claimed to get their knowledge through spirit guides. So I think that there is a much greater tie-in to spiritism historically than has been suggested. But there are six or seven different converging lines of evidence, all of which support the conclusion that astrology is an occult practice; it always has been.
- Weldon: Itās accepted historically. Many astrologers today accept the fact that it is an occult art. Most of the people I contacted at the AFA convention which claims to offer astrology as a science were into the occult, had developed psychic abilities. And 80 percent of the people I interviewed, they admitted this and that they became psychic through astrology. There are any number of spirit-dictated books on astrology. Irene Diamond, who was my first instructor at the conference, had three books she says were dictated by her spirit guides on astrology. Alice Bailey, her spirit guide, the Tibetan, dictated esoteric astrology. Edgar Cayce, trance medium, dictated 2,500 readings on astrology. Itās important to remember that astrologers do not always admit the fact that they have spirit guides. I talked to several people at the conference who initially said āNo,ā and then later they said āYes, they did have spirit guidesā when they were pressed on the issue. All in all, astrology is an occult practice.
- Ankerberg: Alright, Maxine, weāre going to take a break and when I come back, I want to ask you a question about the president, your buddyāyouāre vice president of the American Federation of Astrologersāand I want to read a quote from the president about her astrological views. And weāll talk about it when we come right back.
- Ankerberg: Alright weāre back, and Maxine, Iād like to come and talk with you about Doris Chase Doane, who is the president of the American Federation of Astrologers and her book Astrology: 30 Yearsā Research. And she talks about her view of astrology: āThus, the birth chart maps the thought cells and thought structures within the unconscious mind.ā Now, thatās quite a statement. I want to know how she knows that āthe birth chart maps the thought cells and the thought structures within the unconscious mind of the newborn babe and the positions of the planetsāāhereās how the stars affect it now; this is the celestial bodiesāāthe positions of the planets indicate their kindā āthe kind of thought cellsāāthe intensity of the thought cells and the general direction of their desires.ā Do you believe that kind of thing?
- Taylor: Well, first of all, youāre asking me to comment on somebody elseās book. Youāre asking me to comment on a book of Doris Chase Doane who is probably one of the foremost astrologers in the country today from a scientific standpoint. You would have to askā¦.
- Weldon: Iād like to say something, if I can interrupt. I donāt like to interrupt, but I took her class. To say that, āshe is one of the foremost scientific astrologers,ā she has been a spiritist for about 35 years. The Church of Light of which she has been a member is an earthly organization that has been contacted by what they call the āBrotherhood of Lightā which is the spiritistic hierarchy that works through the earthly organization, the Church of Light. She has taught courses in this on at least a dozen different forms of the occult. I talked with her after her class called āThe Art of Transmutation.ā She said, āThe spiritsā work through the organizationā is very important to the work of astrology. That is not scientific, thatās occultic.
- Ankerberg: Alright, I just wanted to know, was that your view too. I thought maybe, as being the vice president, thatās not your view astrologically?
- Taylor: Well, Iām not clear exactly what sheās saying. And what I would say is that you would have to ask her exactly what she means.
- Ankerberg: Okay, let me come back to you. What is the importance of the birthday as far as youāre concerned?
- Taylor: As far as Iām concerned? When a baby is born, that chart represents Godās plan for that child in this lifetime.
- Ankerberg: Why is it Godās plan?
- Taylor: Because astrology is Godās plan.
- Ankerberg: Who told you?
- Taylor: The Bible?
- Ankerberg: Where did the Bible tell you?
- Taylor: In Genesis.
- Martin: Where?
- Taylor: In Genesis. Excuse me, one moment. It says it whenāand, of course, you are the biblical scholar, so Iām going to be quoting from memory. But itās when God said that he, God, put the sun and the moon in the heavens for signs.
- Ankerberg: Well, let me read it to you, then, okay? Genesis 1:14, āGod said, āLet there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years. And let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth and it was so.ā God made two great lights, the greater light to govern the day; the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth to govern the day and the night and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.ā
- Warneke: John, you know very wellā¦.
- Ankerberg: I want to hear what Maxine has to say. That was the verse she was quoting. Now, give me the interpretation.
- Taylor: I just did.
- Ankerberg: What is it?
- Taylor: I just said it to you.
- Ankerberg: Okay, tell me again, please.
- Taylor: What I said was that God put the planets in the heavens for signs. And as an astrologer, I read those signs.
- Warneke: John, you know very well that there are numerous biblical translations of that passage. You picked the particular Bible translation that you preferred. But a lot ofā¦.
- Ankerberg: I picked the one thatās a standard NIV interpretation.
- Warneke: Yeah, the standard NIV. But there are other Bibles, which you knowā¦.
- Ankerberg: NIV is the most scholarly, up-to-date, accurate translation of all the scholars right now on the market.
- Weldon: Terry, fromā¦.
- Martin: Wait a second. Just a second. I want to ask a question, how do you know what he used as a translation?
- Warneke: Because Iām familiar with that particular translation.
- Martin: You are?
- Warneke: Yes.
- Martin: How many translations have you checked on the Hebrew that say that, or English?
- Warneke: Okay, well, first of all, he didnāt check the Hebrew either.
- Martin: I think he did. Heās pretty good at that.
- Warneke: What Iām pointing out here is that that particular passage obviously does, when it speaks of putting signs in the sky, some of the Bible translations say āsigns to mark seasons.ā Some say āsigns to mark festivals.ā Others just say that lights are placed in the sky āas signs, and to mark seasons.ā In other words, they translate it differently. Iāve looked at about four or five different Bible translations, and Iāve noticed thereās quite a difference there.
- Ankerberg: Let me quote you Dr. Gleason Archer, professor who corrects the lexicon, PhD, graduated from Harvard. In the footnote he says, āsignsāin the ways that theyāre mentioned here, not in any astrological sense.ā
- Warneke: Yes, I read that one, too.
- Ankerberg: Thatās from an authority on the linguistics.
- Warneke: I have a commentary in here from a man who is a Hebrew scholar and who just recently died. And he said that particular interpretation would be absurd to any modern rabbi.
- Ankerberg: So Genesis, which was written by Moses, in a couple of books over where he absolutely condemns it, he āgoofedā in the front?
- Warneke: No. Weāre not saying that at allā¦
- Ankerberg: He meant something different?
- Warneke: Look, John, you never allowed me to respond to your so-called condemnation in the first place, the so-called condemnations that you read, several passages of which had to do with star worship. I would absolutely agree. When we talk about a meteorologist studying the weather and predicting what will happen tomorrow, we donāt assume that the meteorologist worships the weather.
- Ankerberg: āLet no one be found among you who practices divination.ā And I thought I gave a real concise explanation from the Bible dictionaryāany one that you want to pick outāon what divination was.
- Warneke: Yes, you did, and you gave two definitions.
- Ankerberg: Thatās Deuteronomy 18.
- Warneke: You gave two definitions of divination and the first definition of divination you gave would fit virtually any modern science today.
- Ankerberg: No, it wouldnāt.
- Warneke: Yes, it would.
- Ankerberg: Why would you say that?
- Warneke: Read it.
- Ankerberg: Divination is the fact of picking out signs about the future and in making an interpretation?
- Warneke: Well, you read two different definitions of divination.
- Ankerberg: Alright. Iāll read it again. Number one, is that itās āobtaining knowledge by outward signs.ā Artificial (fake) divination depends on the skill of the agent reading and interpreting certain signs or omens. Inspirational divination: the medium is under the immediate influence or control of spirits who enable him to discern the future and utter oracles of what he sees.
- Warneke: āObtaining information by outward sign.ā If you donāt think that a meteorologist when he consults the positions of air masses and fronts, those are not outward signs in the physical world, and he doesnāt look at those and attempt to predict the weather? And do we not admit that probably 50% of the time heās wrong? But nevertheless, we donāt accuse him of divination when he does that.
- Ankerberg: Ungerās Bible Dictionary was very plain in what they said, and they referred to all of the practices of the Canaanites, the Babylonians and so on, as illustrations, not in the sense of the heavens which were made by God to be admired, nothing wrong with admiring them, as long as you didnāt worship them, as long as you didnāt go to them for the information that you were only supposed to get from God.
- Warneke: Furthermore, the quote that you mentioned in Isaiah 47:13-14, there is a clear example of where theyāre talking⦠well, first of all, if you back up and read several pages, you realize at the time the speaker or the writer of that is condemning the entire Israel nation for many things, of which one of them he condemns for is astrology. But if you remember,ā¦
- Ankerberg: Sorry. Thatās not the context. Itās Babylon that heās condemning there.
- Warneke: Okay. At the time that he condemns the astrologers, he says that they do not have the power to save themselves from what they have predicted. I submit to you that we take a modern parallel: when a meteorologist predicts that there is a tornado, we donāt assume that the meteorologist has any power to stop tornados. We donāt assume that if heās subjected to a tornado heās not going to die as easily as any man.
- Ankerberg: I guess whatās important in Isaiah 47:13, besides the fact of God saying judgment was coming and that no matter what they were saying from the stars, that that judgment would not be spared. They couldnāt do anything about that.
- Warneke: Exactly.
- Ankerberg: Also, it says, āEach of them goes on in his error,ā verse 15. āThere is not one that can save you.ā So he calls their practice āerror.ā
- Weldon: John, thereās an important point here that Terry brought up about worship, because the Christian astrologers that Iāve talked to say, āWell, we donāt engage in divination. And we do not engage in literal worship of the stars. We do not bow down to them.ā And, in essence, this is simply a practice of counseling and therefore they say that it is okay.
- In Deuteronomy 17 God says that if a man or a woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command, has worshipped other gods, bowed down to them, or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attentionā and he goes on to say āyou shall stone them to death.ā The death penalty was prescribed.
- In Acts in the New Testament, in Acts 7:42, it says, āBut God turned away [from the Israelites who were engaging in astrology] and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies.ā So God deliberately turned away from them.
- Now, what is worship? Is worship only bowing down in front of an idol or something? Worship involves what your lifeās attention is on; what you give your devotion to; and all kinds of other things which the astrologer gives to the starry hosts.
- Warneke: I guess then geologists worship rocks.
- Ankerberg: Walter?
- Martin: I think itās very important to discuss something that was brought up before. No matter what your reason for practicing astrology may be, why donāt you instead go to him who is, āThe root and the offspring of David, the bright and the morning star.ā Why not go to the One who created the heavens instead of letting astrology take your eyes off the Creator and glue them on the creation? Instead, worship the God that made it, not the thing he made.
- Warneke: May I answer that?
- Ankerberg: Maxine, how about just a final answer from you and then weāre out of this program.
- Taylor: Okay, first of all, I can only speak for myself. And speaking for myself, I put God first. I do not worship the planets. My astrology is my career. My love is God. My attention is on God all the time. As Iām speaking to you now and the words out of my mouth are talking about planets, my attention is on God. And thatās the truth.
- Ankerberg: Okay. Weāre going to pick this up again next week and weāll talk about these things further. Please join us.
[ā¦] Read Part 4 [ā¦]