Eleven Million Near-Death Experiences: Do Some Indicate it May Not Be Safe to Die? ā Program 4
By: Howard Storms, Nancy Evans Bush, June Langley, Dr. Maurice Rawlings, Dr. John Weldon, Dave Hunt; ©1994 |
When someone says they have had a near-death experience, what is it that has actually happened to them? |
What Is a Near-Death Experience?
Introduction
The popular movies Ghost and Flatliners describe what more than eleven million Americans have now reported, namely that they have had a near-death experience in which they left their body, traveled through a dark tunnel, recognized friends and loved ones who had died, and encountered a supreme being of light. Are their near-death experiences real evidence for life after death? Some people have reported they found themselves in hell, not heaven, during their near-death death experience. Do their frightening hell experiences indicate it may not be safe for us to die?
My guests who will be answering these questions includeĀ : Dr. Maurice Rawlings, a specialist in cardiovascular diseases; Nancy Evans Bush, president of the International Association of Near-Death Studies, one of the most prestigious organizations in America collecting information on near-death experiences; June Langley, a nurse who has cared for over 500 children who have died of terminal diseases; Dave Hunt, internationally known Christian researcher and author of the best-selling book The New Spirituality; Howard Storm, an atheistic professor who, as a result of having a hell experience, believed on Christ and has become a Christian pastor; and Dr. John Weldon, author of more than 40 books on comparative religions. We invite you to join us.
- Ankerberg: Weāre having a wonderful discussion here talking about near-death experiences and what they mean. What do they tell us? If weāve had 13 million Americans that have told George Gallup that theyāve had a near-death experience and theyāve gone through the tunnel, theyāve seen āthe great white lightā and theyāve come back and most of them had a positive experience. Some have had negative experiences. But what are the implications? What do they tell us about life after death? Whatās death going to be like? You ought to be interested, because I assume youāre going to die someday, just like I am.
- And probably the toughest area, I mean, where the rubber really hits the road, is when youāre talking about children and death. Nothing will rip your heart out more than when youāre dealing with children that are dying. The doctors, the nurses, by and large, stay away from this area because they make it too personalized when theyāre dealing with it. They canāt handle it. But we do have a lady here, and thatās exactly what she does. And sheās done it one of our finest institutions, Johns Hopkins University, in the hospital there. June, start us off by telling us about some of your children and some of the pictures that theyāve drawn for you and about what they have seen and what theyāve told you and your whole area of dealing with them.
- Langley: Okay. Iāve been a nurse for over 19 years now. For five years I worked at Johns Hopkins Hospital and I walked over 500 children through death. I held them. I was their mother; their teacher; their guideāwhatever it took to make it peaceful for them. Out of the 500 children I worked with, from two to eleven, ten were resuscitated. Nine of these children said they saw the light.
- One little girl who was Catholic with Spanish background said she saw a man with a beard with a white robe and she said it was Jesus Christ. Whatever or whomever she said she saw, I accepted. I have a picture here that a little girl drew for me. Psychiatrists have been able to tell what children want to say to you by pictures and they divide it into four parts. And itās the past, the present, the future, and the final. Over here, this was this little girlās past. You can see that she came from a happy home. Iām mentioning heart because she said she wanted to donate her heart to another little girl. And it was so cute. She said, āI didnāt want to do my eyes because I was afraid they hurt.ā Now, she had a brain tumor. She was in a coma. And you see this is her present. She was in a coma and when she came out, she told me what she saw and she knew that she was going back. And I asked her, āWhat about now? What are you going to see finally, and whatās going to happen?ā And she said to me, āJune, I donāt know. All I know is that the light said, when I go back, Iāll be alright.ā Now, she was eleven years old. And I held her when she died and she was at peace. I can only speak for what they say to me.
- Ankerberg: So what do you draw from that? In other words, they had that kind of experience and what bottom line do you draw?
- Langley: The bottom line is, these are innocent children. They have not been taught bad things in the world. I mean, they were raised by loving parents, most of them that Iāve taken care of. And so they only saw goodness and they felt goodness. And if this is what they feel, this is what happens to them at the end. And I accept this. And this has been able to, because theyāve come back and they saw the light, itās been able for me to write my book and talk about The Silent Lullaby. And if the child does not have a background or does not have a place to go or a religious belief that they can hold on to, if they have that, then I accept that. But if they donāt, I walk them to the light and I hold them, and I rock them, and I love them. And thatās what happens. Thatās all I know.
- Rawlings: In children, though, weāre dealing with, I assume itās unaccountability, because Iāve never seen a negative experience in a pediatric patient nor heard of one. So, if itās, whatever light theyāre seeing, Iām sure God is taking care of His own at that age, in my own heart.
- Ankerberg: Well, theologically, Hunt, do you want to go into this thing in terms of the age of accountability, in terms of David. Set that up biblically.
- Hunt: Well, he prayed for the life of the child, but the child died. God doesnāt always answer prayers. And then, when the child died, David had been fasting and weeping and praying. He suddenly washed himself and began to eat. And the servants couldnāt understand it. He said, āHe will not come back to me. I will go to him.ā He knew where the child had gone.
- Now, Jesus said, āSuffer [allow] the little children to come unto me, forbid them not: for such is the kingdom of heaven.ā He said, āTheir angelsāāI donāt understand thisāādo always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.ā So, I believe that a child who dies, before they have gotten to the age of accountabilityāand I donāt know what that was; in Davidās case, it was a baby, just a few days oldāI believe they go to be with Christ. They are covered by His redemptive work upon the cross. He died for them. On the other hand, I canāt say when that age is.
- We raised four children. I can tell you that, I mean, I donāt understand how people can say that a child is perfect and itās society that does it to them. We never had to train any of our children to be nasty, deceitful, selfish. It came naturally. Even a little baby, turn it over when youāre trying to change its diaper. Our youngest son, the first word he learned was āNo,ā and he said it in his sleep. āNo!ā I mean, when heās just a little baby. And when we asked him as a little boy, āWhat are you going to be when you grow up?ā He said, āIām going to be a villain.ā I mean, that really does something to a parent. By Godās grace he didnāt turn out to be that way, but I donāt know when they cross that line.
- Ankerberg: Alright. Letās pick this up when we come right back. Stick with us.
- Ankerberg: Alright, weāre back, and weāre talking about what happens when you die. What are we learning from those who are having near-death experiences? And weāve got a pattern and weāre talking about what happens when people see the āgreat light.ā Thereās a change in their life, but is part of this deceptive? And weāre talking about, āWhat about children?ā I think weāve talked about children from a theological point of view as well as what June has been talking about. Youāve got an illustration, you said. How does it tie in?
- Weldon: Well, that illustrates my earlier concern. I did not want to give the idea that all near-death experiences were evil or demonic. I think there are three basic categories: Thereās one thatās neutral; thereās one thatās godly or spiritual or biblical; and thereās the demonic and the deceptive out there. And you have to look at the experience and evaluate it biblically.
- Ankerberg: How can you evaluate it?
- Weldon: You can evaluate it by any messages that the being of light or the light gives; what happens if the person goes into the light and receivesā¦
- Ankerberg: What do you mean?
- Weldon: Sometimes the being of light or the light will give a message that God is not concerned with your sin here and that you are automatically going to heaven regardless of your beliefs. Now, biblically, thatās not true; because Jesus said that He was the only way to God. So my concern is just for the deception. Iāve talked to so many people that have had an experience and have come back with the absolute cemented conviction that no matter what, even though itās been a positive experience, it does not matter what they believe about Jesus Christ in this life. Theyāre going to heaven anyway.
- Ankerberg: Nancy, jump in here.
- Bush: Okay. What we have just encountered is the heart of the issue here, which is, the theological issue. And itās important to me to support something that Howard said earlier: recognizing that you august folk have a deep reverent point of view. What I hear on the phones, in the letters, from people who have been driven from their churches becauseāand Iām talking perhaps your churchesābecause people have characterized their experiences which they believe absolutely to be of God, life-changing, but if they havenāt said the formulae of words acceptable to you, they are driven out and many of these folk never go back to church. And I think it is so urgent to point out that maybe is it the words youāre worried about?
- Weldon: No, what Iām really worried about is, what Scripture teaches is true about God and man and salvationā¦
- Bush: But are you listening toā¦
- Weldon: I think why many people who have a near-death experience are driven out of the churches is because of that occult experience in the near-death state that teaches unbiblical truth.
- Bush: Iām talking about people who haveāI canāt tell you how many peopleāhave said, āI wantedā āas Howard didāāI wanted to go back to church. I went back to church. People said my experience was demonic. My experience wasā¦.ā
- Storm: Let me interject here, people have been judged before they have expressed any doctrinal theological ideas at all. They said they had an āexperience,ā and people say, āThatās from the devil!ā Thatās what we have to avoid.
- Weldon: Iām not judging anyone. Iām appealing for an evaluation of an experience that has clearly unbiblical elements. And I think that the Church ought to be the first entity that reaches out to these people and attempts to explain these experiences from the perspective of biblical revelation. But I donāt think the Church can just say, āOkay, your experience teaches things that arenāt biblical or you have started to develop psychic abilities as a result of this or believe that everyoneās going to heaven, and there is no judgment.ā The Church canāt accept that.
- Langley: Weāre not representing all the churches here and itās not fair.
- Storm: I can agree with everything youāre [Weldon] saying, okay? I hear you and I agree totally. Iām just saying that we shouldnāt judge them before we know what theyāre about. And the other thing was to help these people process them. Because another way that Satan can work is a person has an experience that they canāt even think of the words to describe. Any valid near-death experience, the person canāt even articulate what happened to them, and Satan can move in on that person who is very vulnerable, you know? Very vulnerable at that time because somethingās happened that they canāt articulate and Satan comes in and like interjects a lot of garbage, a lot of occult stuff into them and theyāre welcomed into New Age cults with open arms and the Church is usually going, āWe donāt understand it. Weāre suspicious of it. Get out!ā
- Rawlings: Thatās exactly right. And what Nancy says I think is true. No one will fight you, a Christian, more than another Christian. And it drives them out of the Church.
- Ankerberg: Let me put a little illustration on the table. I agree; we shouldnāt be judgmental. We ought to hear what theyāre saying. But what if the guy says to youāand Iāve been in a lot of the psycho wards, just to counsel and all this kind of stuffābut the fact is, letās say that a fellow whoās been on a drunk, and heās been drinking all weekend, and he says, āMaurice, look at that pink elephant. Man, is he big. Wow! Heās going to stomp all over me.ā
- Rawlings: Iāve seen him. Yeah. Big ones.
- Ankerberg: Now, the fact is that heās really seeing something. Now, do you correct him? Do you say that thatās a true experience?
- Rawlings: No, I tell him, āI see him.ā
- Ankerberg: So I think this is where Weldonās coming from. I would say youāre not going to come in a judgmental attitude where you donāt listen to the people; but if you have a criteria that says that which they are seeing cannot be true, thereās a deception there. Then what do you do? Weāre to the next spot here.
- Weldon: But for the grace of God, go I. Iāve had a lot of experiences as a non-Christian. And as a Christian and, you know, my whole desire is to lead people to Christ. I have just a love for Scripture and the truth, and what grieves me is when false conclusions are drawn about an experience that has eternal consequences. The last thing I want to do is come across as judgmental to anyone, or uncaring or unloving. I love these people. Thatās why I want to have them evaluate the experience from a biblical perspective: is it true?
- Storm: And to support your point of view, I saw a woman on television on a national show that said, āI saw this experience. There is no Satan. There is no evil. There is no hell. Everybodyās goingā¦ā and I was about to smash my TV because sheās speaking to millions of people as if she has authority, and it was all lies she was saying. And she, basically, at best, is an extremely deluded woman.
- Hunt: But, Howard, the message I get from, if Iām not mistaken, from June and Nancy is, it doesnāt really matter. Becauseā¦
- Bush: No. No.
- Langley: Wait, Iām talking clinically.
- Bush: No. No. No.
- Hunt: Let me finish. Nancy, you said that the Burmese person down here, this illiterate Burmese person, will interpret it in their way. But wait a minute. Iām a mathematician. Iām a certified public accountant. Thereās some things that are true and some things that are false. And Iām not going to leave it to a Burmese illiterate person to reinterpret reality. Do you understand what Iām saying? And June is saying, āWell, all religions, Iām not going to judge religions.ā But listen, June, religions contradict one another.
- Langley: Why canāt you say God can come to that Burmese person because heās illiterate? God canāt come to himā¦.
- Hunt: No. I didnāt say that.
- Langley: Because youāre an accountant and youāre different?
- Hunt: Youāre not understanding what Iām saying. I didnāt say God canāt come to him. He came to Abraham. Abraham was a pagan and Jesus said, āAbraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it and was glad.ā What Iām saying is that God does not come,⦠for example, as you suggest in some of your writings, that everythingās a manifestation of God.
- Langley: Iām talking about children. And Iām talking clinically about children: the needs and the desires they have at that time of death.
- Hunt: June, everything is not the manifestation of Godāthen, evil is the manifestation of God; murder is the manifestation of God. God is not an impersonal force that permeates the universe. This is pantheism. Heās a personal God and He does not come in a false way, whether itās a child, whether itās a Burmese person or not. Thereās such a thing as truth and such a thing as error. Now, we shouldnāt chase them away. I wouldnāt want to do it in that manner. But if I care for them,ā¦
- Bush: I am missing your point about this Burmese peasant. Are you saying, if he does not speaking Burmese, utter the words that you would like to have him say, that itās a deceptive experience?
- Hunt: Nancy, itās not the words that I want him to say. Youāve said that several times: āIf they donāt repeat your formula.ā Iām not making this up. Iām going by the Bibleā¦
- Bush: Iām asking helpā¦
- Hunt: Jesus said, āI am the way, the truth, the life: no man cometh to the Father but by me.ā
- Bush: Youāve got me so confused here, because what would stick with that Burmese peasant? Iām just trying to sort out what would you consider for that Burmese peasant an adequate indication that his experience is of God. Or are you saying his experience cannot be of God.
- Hunt: Not saying that. Romans chapter 1, tells usāand this is what I believe and so Iām answering you in biblical termsāthat everybody on the face of this earth, whether theyāre Burmese or Chinese or American, whoever they are, they all know from the creation, from the universe about themā¦
- Bush: Right. Right.
- Hunt: ā¦that God exists. It couldnāt happen by chanceā¦
- Bush: Right.
- Hunt: Furthermore, they know that God is a personal God. You canāt make a brain, you canāt make a person, by an impersonal force. And they also know, Romans chapter 2, in their conscience, what he knew: that they have violated Godās laws. Weāre sinners.
- Bush: Right.
- Hunt: You canāt make up for sinning yesterday by keeping the law today. You canāt do it. If I stand before a judge and the judge says, āYou were speeding yesterday,ā and I say, āJudge, if you let me off this time, I promise you, Scoutās honor, Iāll never break the law again,āā¦
- Bush: I stillā¦
- Langley: You havenāt answered the question.
- Hunt: Iām telling you. Iām trying to tell you.
- Langley: No, youāre shaking the Bible.
- Hunt: The judge says if you keep the law perfectly from now on, youāve broken it already. A penalty has to be paid. Every person knows that.
- Bush: How about that Burmese peasant? How do you assess whether his experience is of God?
- Hunt: If he comes out of it saying that God is an impersonal force, that no matter what I do, Iām going to be accepted. thatās not of God. But as a Burmese person, he could know, he could have a revelation from the true God, of the truth, that heās morally accountable then.
- Bush: Okay. Okay. fine.
- Storm: Can we come on closer to home? We have in our society more than a hundred million people dying without Christ, without knowing God cares about them. Without knowing what God has done for them. I think we all need to go out there and concern ourselves with this unchristian civilization that we live in.
- Ankerberg: Right. Thereās more to this answer and I hate to interrupt it, but weāre out of time. So if youāll join us next week, weāll pick it up right here. Promise. Weāll have these folks pick it up right here. So join us then.