A Response to Bill OāReillyās Book āKilling Jesusā ā Part 2 ā Program 3
| October 23, 2013 |
By: Dr. Gary Habermas and Dr. Darrell Bock; ©2013 |
Why did the Romans crucify Jesus? Of what did Pilate judge him to be guilty? Why do historians believe the facts show Jesus really claimed to be the Son of God? |
12 Historical Facts Concerning the Resurrection of Jesus
(This transcript contains bonus material that will not appear in the on-air version due to time limitations.)
- Dr. John Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. Weāre talking about Bill OāReillyās new book, Killing Jesus. Have you read it yet? Iām sure youāve heard about it. Weāre going to be examining one of the key topics, namely after Jesus was crucified, dead and buried, what happened to His body? Why was His tomb found empty three days later? And Iāve got two of the worldās leading Jesus scholars here with us today. First, Dr. Darrell Bock, one of the leading historical Jesus scholars in our country and one of the worldās foremost authorities on the Gospel of Luke. Heās Senior Research Professor of New Testament at Dallas Theological Seminary. And Dr. Gary Habermas, the distinguished Research Professor and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Theology at Liberty University. Heās authored, co-authored or edited more than 60 books.
- Now, Gary, you have taken a very interesting approach to answering this question for skeptics, namely, what happened to the body? And youāre saying that you can start with a list of 12 historical facts that are accepted by virtually all critical scholars, not just Christians, but guys that are atheists, skeptics, the whole shooting match. Youāve got 3,400 sources that you are watching, you are checking, you are seeing what theyāre saying. Tell me about the 12 historical facts.
- Dr. Gary Habermas: Well, I started off very skeptical myself, so I did this for myself. Can we get a resurrection lowest common denominator?
- Ankerberg: Yeah, because you were at Michigan State and you werenāt a Christian and youā¦
- Habermas: I used to argue with Christians. Okay, well, hereās what I did. I took a common list of data that were admitted by scholars. Letās say thereās 20 or 25. And I thought to myself, well, can I do it with half that? Can I do it with only 12? And then I thought, well, I will arbitrarilyāI already arbitrarily cut the list to 12; nobody only gives you 12āIāll go down to five or six to show that with a minimal number of factsāand I chose ones that are multiply evidenced by several,⦠you know, coming in like this, many evidences on each fact; and secondly, the vast majority of scholars accepts every one. So I think you could use those five and get to the resurrection.
- Ankerberg: Alright, but let me give the list of 12 and then Iāll let you pare it down. And you say with just the five you can prove that Jesus actually rose from the dead. So letās try it out.
- First of all, the first fact: Jesus died by crucifixion.
- Second: He was buried.
- Third: His death caused the disciples to despair and to lose hope.
- Fourth: His tomb was found empty on the third day.
- Fifth: The disciples had experiences that they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus.
- Sixth: Because of these experiences, the disciples were transformed from doubters into bold proclaimers of His death and resurrection.
- Seventh: The message was the center of preaching in the early church.
- Eighth: This message was especially proclaimed in the environs of Jerusalem where Jesus had just died and was buried.
- Ninth: As a result of this preaching the church came into existence.
- Ten: Sunday became the primary day of worship.
- Eleventh: Jesusā own brother James, who had been a skeptic, was converted to the faith because he believed that he had seen the risen Jesus.
- And twelfth: A few years later Paul was converted by an experience which he likewise believed to be the appearance of the risen Jesus to himself.
- Now, those are the 12 that youāre saying all, virtually all, critical scholars accept. And youāre going to cut that in half. What are the ones youāve chosen?
- Habermas: Yeah, I drop out ones like, for example, the empty tomb. I can tell you about two thirds or three quarters of scholars accept. That doesnāt meet my criteria. So when I get down to five, I want an acceptance in the 90ās of scholarship. I do the second one first. That oneās not as,⦠that criterion is not as important that everybody agrees. But why do they agree? They agree because there is so much evidence at each of these points. And I go anywhere from four to seven that I pick out of the 12. And I emphasize death by crucifixion; the disciples had experiences that they thought were appearances of the risen Jesus; their lives were transformed as a result; you have James; you have Paul; and that this is proclaimed very, very early in the church. If I only had to use a half dozen, those are the ones I would go after. And I argue that they are sufficient to both indicate that the resurrection is the, you say proof, I would say best explanation, for what we know is true. And secondly, you can answer the major naturalistic theories with that data.
- Ankerberg: Alright, take a breath. Heās got, number one, Jesus actually died. And you wanted to say something the last program and we didnāt get it in. Why is it that itās a sure thing that Jesus actually died on that cross?
- Dr. Darrell Bock: I think itās important to remember that when Jesus goes up on the cross He doesnāt go up as a pristine body. Heās been scourged. The scourging involves a whip with either bone pellets or shards of glass, or whatever, something that cuts the skin. Itās designed to cause you to bleed. The reason you bleed is so that you will die more quickly on the cross. They want it to be a particularly gruesome experience. Itās so gruesome Roman citizens were not permitted to be crucified. So the idea that Jesus could go up on the cross, hang there for several hours, and survive, that might be a miracle greater than the resurrection itself.
- Ankerberg: Gary, keep on going.
- Habermas: Well, after that I would say the next most important thing on the list, if you take the short list, is that the disciples were utterly convinced. They kind of snapped out of their despair at that weekend; and they had experiences which they believed were appearances of the risen Jesus. Virtually no scholar running today is going to deny that. The disciples had experiences, real experiences, that they believed were appearances of the risen Jesus. And their lives did an 180 degree [turn].
- Now, Iāll say something real briefly. People say, āWell, in our world today weāve got all kinds of people whoāll die for all kinds of things thatās not true; people die for wrong things all the time.ā They die for things that are wrong, but that they believe are right. Whenever someone dies for something we generally say if they were willing to die for it they were convinced it was right. And thatās what weāre trying to get out of this. They had experiences that they believed were appearances of the risen Jesus, and it turned their lives around, because they believed they were right.
- But the problem is, if youāre a critic, itās reported very, very early. Thereās an empty tomb to kind of back it up a little bit. But these experiences are very, very early. Their lives were changed. You have some skeptics involved, James and Paul and others.
- But naturalistic theories are so poor at explaining the data that most critics today do not want to be pinned down. Youād think thatās the easiest thing in the world. āWell, then you tell me what happened. Pick a naturalistic theory.ā And Iāve had guys in dialogue go, āOh, no, no, no. I know your method.ā Well, whatās my method? āYou want me to pick a naturalistic theory then youāre going to get me in a corner.ā Iām going to say, āLook, if the data are good enough to get you in the corner, no matter what theory you choose, whoās that for? Is that a fact on my side or a fact on your side? Youāre the naturalist, so pick something.ā And then theyāll just go, āNo, no, no.ā And the crowd starts laughing. And you go, alright, people are starting to see what the data are here.
- Ankerberg: What was the next one that really came to you?
- Habermas: Itās proclaimed very, very early; because even eyewitnesses at 40 years is not the best in the world. These are eyewitnesses immediately on top of the facts, with the skeptics that I mentioned a moment ago, James and Paul. I think of Reginald Fuller, a prominent New Testament scholar, who said, āEven if the New Testament did not say Jesus appeared to James, I have to assume He did, because otherwise I canāt explain, one, the manās conversion; and two, his being subsequently being elevated to the pastor of the largest church in the ancient world.ā So, somehow we have to explain these life changes.
- Ankerberg: Yeah, I think, Darrell, that this is very important. What Garyās bringing up is that you have early accounts. And people that are the critics of the standard Christian position, they usually want to take these documents and push them as far back as possible so that you can have a lot of hearsay taking place.
- Bock: As far away from the events as possible.
- Ankerberg: Yeah, itās like saying, you know, something at a party, and it goes around the circle. Theyāre saying, well, Jesus, He did His thing here, and then it was passed on to this person and this person, and year after year after year. Till it was finally a 100 years later; this guy said it. And this guy, what he wrote is completely different from what Jesus did over here. Now, if you have eyewitnesses, if you have early accounts, if youāve got sources that go back to the time of Jesus, then all of that goes away. Now, I mean, I look at people that, for example, John A.T. Robinson that actually started the āDeath of Godā movement. When he was challenged to look at the documents he said they were all written, you know, by 70 AD. Well, whether you believe that or not, that means within 40 years of Jesusā crucifixion they were all on the newsstands.
- Bock: Yeah, and it isnāt 40 years. If you work your way back to the theology of the early church, what theyāre preaching and what we know, we can get literally right up against the events themselves. And the key figure here is one of the figures in Garyās core facts, Paul. Paul is converted sometime within a couple of years of the time of Jesusā death. Heās been an opponent. He knows what all the debate is. He knows the Jewish side of the argument; he knows the Christian side of the argument. He knows whether the empty tomb is really there. He knows what theyāre preaching. He knows the whole shooting match. He knows what the Christians are claiming: that Jesus is the Messiah and the promised Son of God. He knows all that.
- And in the midst of all that, the moment Jesus appears to him he realized, thatās a resurrection. If thatās a resurrection, then maybe what those guys were saying is true. And he buys in. Now, that conversation that leads to his conversion within a couple of years has been taking place before we get to that conversion. So weāre literally right up against the events themselves in the place where itās happening, in the debate where itās happening. And so there is no gap, you know; that gap has just shrunk. There is no telephone game or Chinese whispers game, whatever you call it. The facts run up right against the events themselves.
- Habermas: You know, Bart Ehrman says two things in his recent book that are just amazing. Now, heās probably, for those who donāt know, probably the best-known skeptic of this country. And he says over and over again, āDonāt yell at me. Iām not even a believer.ā He says that. And yet, he has one chapter in his book, Did Jesus Exist?, heās got two arguments that really make a difference. And one of the two is Paul went up to Jerusalem to talk to Peter and James to ascertain the truth of all this. And two of his lines that I just love. One of them says this. He says: āPaul spent 15 days with Peter and James,ā pause; āIād like to spend 15 days with James and Peter.ā Thatās pretty cool. And then he says this: āWhere do we get closer to eyewitness testimony than this?ā
- Ankerberg: Yeah.
- Habermas: Thatās Bart Ehrman.
- Ankerberg: Yeah. I think thatās terrific.
- Habermas: Where do we get closer?
- Ankerberg: Alright, weāre going to take a break. When we come back I want to slow this down for some of you, and I want to take this passage that we keep referring to in 1 Corinthians 15, the first three or four verses. Iām going to have Gary quote them, and then weāre going to tell you why this is significant to critical scholars. So stick with us; weāll be right back.
- Ankerberg: Alright, weāre back. And weāre talking with Dr. Darrell Bock and Dr. Gary Habermas. Weāre critiquing Bill OāReillyās new book, Killing Jesus, that youāve probably heard about. And Gary has pared down 12 historical facts that all critical scholars accept, down to five or six, and weāre talking about those. And we keep on mentioning a passage about what Paul wrote to the Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 15. I want to put this on the slate for you to see right now. And, Darrell, Iām going to ask you to read those verses; then, Gary, Iām going to ask you to comment. Why is this considered by critical scholars to be early material? Why did the Jewish scholar Joachim Jeremias say that this is good stuff, and it takes us right back to the living Jesus, okay?
- Bock: 1 Corinthians 15:3-8: āFor what I received I passed on to you as of first importance. That Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Peter and then to the Twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all He appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.ā
- And it strikes me in reading this that when we think about the story of Jesus weāre not talking about the story of killing Jesus; weāre talking about the story of the living Jesus. This is a Jesus who is alive and His death is not the end of the story.
- Ankerberg: Absolutely. Gary, why did Joachim Jeremias say that this good Jewish tradition and itās early?
- Habermas: Well, first of all, Iāll preface it by saying, arguablyāitād be a good questionābut arguably there may be no stronger conclusion from New Testament scholarship than that 1 Corinthians 15:3ff is an early pre-Pauline creed. Itās just assumed by virtually everyone, and very few people give the reasons. But if you did, hereās what youād look at. First of all, Paul is taken, in his authentic Pauline epistles, to be authoritative, a good scholar, heās honest, etc. And the big reason is Paul himself says, āI gave you what I was given.ā That simply: āI gave you what I was given.ā We have Paulās word for the fact that he got this from somebody else.
- Now, in the original textāand Jeremias, by the way, thought that the original text was Aramaic. Thatās been disputed, but thatās one reasonābut in the original Greek itās believed that there are two stanzas. And it doesnāt rhyme like English poetry does because English, you know, English didnāt write this. But in the Greek it reads like this: da-ta da-ta da-ta da, da-ta da-ta da-ta da. And thereās two stanzaās that are divided up with these appearances, and Paul says he got it from somebody else. Heās using non-Pauline terms. Heās using and, hotiāand that, and that, and thatāwhich is the Aramaic way of passing on tradition. As a matter of fact, Josephus tells us that thatās how Pharisees were schooled, by passing on traditions. So this āand thatā tradition moves along. And so thatās three or four. Thatās about half the reasons. But scholars believe that this is pre-Pauline.
- Now pre-Pauline means pre-conversion of Paul. If Paul comes to Christ about one to three years after the cross, depending on who it is youāre talking about, and if you put the cross at 30 AD, Paul comes about 32, right away you donāt have to do any more reasoning. If this is pre-Pauline itās 30-32 AD. Or if you think the crucifixionās 33, itās 33-35 AD. But when Paul goes to Jerusalem in Galatians 1 and he spends 15 days with Peter and James, and if theyāre confirming this message at that time, the majority of scholars, consensus view according to Bauckham, is that Paul got this material in Jerusalem when he visits at about 35 AD.
- Now, you can out skeptic the skeptics here. And letās just say for the sake of argument Paul didnāt get this creed. Okay, right there. Letās just say that comes a little bit later. But Paulās still talking about the nature of the gospel. Thatās what the whole book of Galatian,⦠thatās the only thing the book of Galatians is about.
- Ankerberg: And what does he say? What does he actually say in that?
- Habermas: In Galatians 1?
- Ankerberg: No, in 1 Corinthians 15, those verses. What does he actually convey that he received?
- Habermas: Well, Paul says he got the message, and he passed it on to the Corinthians when he came, that Christ died for our sins according to Scriptures, was buried. He says He died and was buried according to the Scriptures. He said He was raised and appeared. So sometimes people say thereās four things here: died, buried, arose, appeared. And that this is according to Scripture he repeats twice. And then he gives a list of appearances, three to individuals, Peter, James and Paul, and three groups,ā¦
- Ankerberg: Jesus appeared to Peter, James and Paul.
- Habermas: ā¦and the three groups: all the apostles; the 12 is the first group; and the 500. So thatās all there and that it can be traced back to 35. But 35 was when Paul received it. If 35 was when Paul got it, the guys who gave it to him, Peter and James presumably, they have it before he has it. It takes a while to standardize these da-ta da-ta da-ta da type sayings, and we get back, actually the events are much before that. James D. G. Dunn, as prominent a Jesus scholar as there is in the right now, Dunn says that this stuff had to become standardized within six months after the cross. Six months. Larry Hurtado, Richard Bauckham, they both say it had to be present when the earliest Christian preaching started, the content of this. And then you have, I think that what breaks the camelās back here is Bart Ehrman saying that we can get this material back to one to two years after the cross. You have to get it before Paulās conversion. So this is early eyewitness material.
- Ankerberg: Yeah, so they didnāt make this up. They basically, they got it, it goes right back to Jesus and what happened at that time. And youāve got the eyewitnesses reporting in; and the people knew all of this stuff. It was tradition being passed on down.
- Habermas: If you think theyāre wrong, try to come up with a naturalistic theory that answers this. And like I said, most critics, a lot of critics Iād say, they think youāre trying to trap them when you say pick a naturalistic theory.
- Bock: Well, in fact, 1 Corinthians 15 is about that very problem. Because the whole point of 1 Corinthians 15 is, what if the resurrection didnāt happen? He says weāre still in our sins and weāre the most pitiful of all people. So the very premise that Paul is defending in that statement is Jesusā death for sin and His burial is like His resurrectionātheyāre all historical events weāre supposed to take serious; because, if this doesnāt happen, the Christian faith is done. So when OāReilly says that the resurrection is the root of the Christian faith heās talking about the historical root. This is the historical root out of which all the theology comes.
- Ankerberg: Gary, why should a person whoās listening to you right now, that is not a Christian, believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior? When you were at Michigan State you were not a Christian. You wrote your PhD thesis on this topic, and you became a Christian. What happened? And give me the reasons why somebody should believe it today.
- Habermas: The resurrection of Jesus is a game changer. Itās one of those epochal events. Without it you can reject a lot of things as lies, misbelief. But if thereās a resurrection,⦠Right away critics pull away from this; because if Jesus was raised from the dead, that seems to say, without any additional argumentāwe can give the argument, but without almost any additional argumentāit seems to say if a miracle is a pointer, if itās a sign, and Heās raised, that seems to say Heās who we thought He was. Because dead men donāt rise.
- Now, if you unpack that for just a moment, if Heās a man, only a man and He dies, Heās not raising Himself. So whoās raising Him? Well, if Heās being acted upon, if His dead body is being acted upon by the God of the universe, guess what? God doesnāt act on Him to say, āAnd hereās the best heretic weāve ever known in history.ā God only raises Him from the dead to confirm His message. And thatās strictly Jewish. You know, you affirm messages. God doesnāt affirm wrong messages; He affirms right messages. And if Jesus was raised by the God of the universe, that immediately puts Godās imprimatur, Godās blessing, Godās seal of approval.
- As Peter, by the way, preaches the first Christian sermon at Pentecost, he says Heās been shown to be a messenger by His death and resurrection, in Acts 2. Right away the resurrection say Godās stamp of approval. Approved. Approved. So right away we have data for the belief in Jesus. So, I mean, thatās a little bit heady for what most peopleā¦. But the people are saying, āWhy should I do this?ā Well, I guess the real simple question is: do you want eternal life? Because hereās the one who was there who says you can share it. And you can have your own ideas about what eternal life is or isnāt, but if you bypass the only person whoās been there, thatās not a real smart move if weāre trying to figure out, you know, how do I live forever.
- Ankerberg: Okay, bring it to yourself.
- Habermas: For myself in 1995 my wife of 23 years had the flu. And it really was the flu, but it didnāt go away. And we had to make a couple of trips to the hospital and make sure itās not going into her lungs; sheās not getting pneumonia. And on one of these checks someone said, āThis stuff isnāt looking real well.ā And the local doctors couldnāt tell us what was going on, so they sent us up to the University of Virginia, which in our neck of the woods, thatās the research hospital.
- And this is important to me; itās a biographical note. We went up the day after Easter 1995. Two days after Easter I found out my wife was terminally ill. So hereās the resurrection juxtaposed with the worse thing I could ever possibly hear in my life. Sheās my best friend. You know, I told my closest friends later, the worst possible thing has come upon me. Godās good, but the worst possible thing has come upon me.
- And I was told that day, two days after Easter, that she was terminally ill: Stage 4 stomach cancer. We got home the first week in May, 1995, and just about the first week, August 9, same year, we buried my wife. With stomach cancer.
- And I realized, while her daily progressionā¦. I mean, she was of very small stature anyway, but watching her lose half her body weight. And this is the person I love. And it was so incredibly hard. Four children; theyāre all home, the youngest is only 9. My wife was only 43. Theyāre asking the same questions: Why mom, why this, why now? And I had to go through this and answer some of these things for myself.
- But I think what was most important to me was realizing that if Jesus is alive, not just in 30 AD, but in 1995āas Darrell said a few moments ago, Heās alive todayāwell, then resurrection is a timeless message. In fact, itās exactly the message I want. And I still to this day donāt know why my wife died. But I pictured the Lord; I used to go out and sit on my front porch with a baby monitor next to me because she was sleeping. And I pictured God talking to me and asking me, āWhat kind of a world is this?ā And Iām saying āWell, itās a world where You raised Your Son from the dead.ā I said, āBut I really want to know why Debbieās dying up there. You know, why is she dying?ā
- And I think what I pictured Him saying to me was, āYou know something? I know what youāre talking about. I watched My Son die.ā And I went āOh!ā Yeah, Iāve spent my whole life studying this. Yeah, I know He did. He said āNow, Gary, Iām not going to tell you why your wife died, but you know I answered His prayer.ā And Iām thinkingāI donāt want to let this show on my faceābut I donāt call dying by crucifixion an answer to your prayer. And the Lord said, āYeah, I raised Him on Sunday morning.ā And then I thought, wow! āAre You telling me my wife has to die? Youāre telling me sheās going to die and thatās how she gets her prayer answered?ā
- And to this day I donāt know why she died, but Scripture says twice in Hebrews, Hebrews says, āThe Son of God learned obedience by the things He suffered.ā So I just started asking, āWhy not me? Why shouldnāt I learn obedience by my suffering?ā And earlier, Hebrews 2, weāre told that Jesus was completed through His suffering. Now, I would think, you know, am I going to learn faster than Jesus does, or do I not have to be completed by my suffering, but He had to be? I mean, who do I think I am?
- And so I realized that suffering is really a part of life. Itās part of the gospel. Itās an indispensable part of the gospel. And I donāt know why the Lord took her, but I cannot think of any doctrine that would be closer to my heart than to say someday weāll be with our loved ones, which is what Paul says many times, John says, Peter, Jesus, many times.
- Iāll end with this. While my wife was dying I got a lot of cards, but the one that really moved me, I could not talk about it for a year after she died. But this card said, āWhat kind of a blessing will it be when you get to heaven and you get to walk hand-in-hand with your wife?ā And I thought I was going to die when I read that card. It was just,⦠And I thought, if my faith does that for me, I have reasons to beat,⦠you know. Whatās that going to do? And if thatās what Godās given me, I can wait. I donāt know why sheās died, but I do know thereās a heaven. I do know thereās an eternity. I can wait; because Iām sure God knows the answer. And if He would give it to me, Iād know the answer in one minute if He chose to give it. So itās about trusting the Lord in everyday life. Thatās what it amounts to, because Jesus is living. So thatās the point. The resurrection says Heās alive today, not just that He was alive back then.
- Ankerberg: Darrell?
- Bock: Well, I think what youāre hearing about is why Jesus has made a difference for so many people across so many centuries; not just Gary, but literally thousands of people, different kinds of cultures, different languages, different ethnicities. Because He is alive. He lives, not just at the side of heaven, but He sends His Spirit to reconnect us with the living God, to produce the reconciliation that is at the core of the gospel. The good news is that you can be reconnected to the living God and that you, being made in Godās image, can be reconnected to that image in fullness through what Jesus Christ has done. Itās a pretty good offer. Itās worth taking seriously. Itās worth embracing, because it changes lives. The one who killed Jesus didnāt stop Him, because that Jesus is alive.
- Ankerberg: Thatās why I think Christianity is spreading across the world even in our day: because itās true. And, folks, I hope that this information will either bring you to the point where you say, āJesus I want You to be my Savior, to forgive my sins. I want to be in relationship with You. Come into my life and change me,ā and experience it for yourself.
- And, guys, I want to just close by saying thank you for coming and giving this tremendous information. I think people here and across the world are going to say this is great, great stuff. They have learned a lot. I have learned a lot just in rereading all the books. And so I thank you for all the hours and hours of time that youāve put into writing these books and researching these projects.
- And, folks, I hope youāll stay tuned right now. Weāre going to tell you how you can get all of this information that youāve been hearing, all of the different programs that weāve done. Stay tuned and weāll show you right now.
[ā¦] Read Part 6 [ā¦]