God’s Protection of the Underground Church
By: John Ankerberg Show
|By: Tom Doyle, Kamal Saleem, General William Boykin; ©2013|
|In our third program we will take you into the chaos of Egypt where Tom Doyle tells us powerful stories of Jesus appearing to Muslims. Kamal Saleem shares how he was raised as a young boy to become a hate-filled terrorist. He explains how he learned at his mother’s table that his highest calling was to die as a martyr while killing infidels. General Boykin explains the biggest misconceptions Americans have about Islam.|
John Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. We have three fascinating guests. We have General Jerry Boykin; we’ve got Kamal Saleem; and we have Tom Doyle. And you’ve heard me introduce them already, so I want to go right to our first question. And it has to do with what’s happening in Syria. We already know, Tom, that over 100,000 people have been killed in Syria. And the amount of people that are getting killed keeps on going up faster and faster. And you’ve worked with some of the refugees. What have you learned about what’s going on in Syria?
Tom Doyle: You know, some of the stories are just heartbreaking, John, when you hear about what’s happened. I think it may be one of the greatest humanitarian crises in the Middle East in the last 20 years when you look at the number of people displaced. And so you have the Alawites versus the Sunnis, and there’s a fight for the struggle to see who will lead the country: Will it be Bashar Assad or the Sunni Muslims? But the killing, the torture. A friend of mine in Syria just sent a picture of a line of ambulances coming into his city in Syria. And he said, “So far in this conflict we’ve had 7,000 children that have been killed just from our city.” That’s just in one city. Horrific abuse, terrible stories. One woman we met in Jordan said that 17 members of her family have been killed already, and it shows no signs of stopping.
Ankerberg: You also have heard the story of how they rounded up men and tortured them. Tell me what you heard.
Doyle: In one of the cities a woman recounted to my wife that they grabbed the men and the boys and they took them to a facility in one Syrian city. And they heard the noise all night of the torture. They said the screams sounded like animals to them. They shut their doors and windows. They were told if they went out to try to help them or rescue them they’d be shot immediately. So they sat in their homes. At the end of this block they can just hear the screams and the torture. And finally they faded off for a little bit of sleep, the women and children, in the middle of the night. And then the next morning they woke up and saw this bright light. And they thought, what is it? Was there a bomb? Is it, the sun doesn’t seem to shine that bright. And they looked down at the end of the block where the men and boys were being held. And they had been chained in there and it was lit on fire. And hundreds of them perished as their families stood by helplessly. Those are kind of some of the things that we see happening in throughout Syria, and it isn’t ending any time soon.
Ankerberg: General Boykin, I’m so glad that you’re here. And with all of your contacts in the CIA, and with the military and Special Forces and all the stuff that you know, give us a little report on two things. First of all, what’s happening on the ground? And number two, what are you afraid is going to happen in the future?
General Boykin: It’s important to understand that there are no good guys in this fight. Neither side could be considered, the good guys. The Free Syrian Army, which really started out as the core of the entities fighting against Bashar al-Assad, was a relatively modern moderate organization. The problem is, they’ve been so deeply infiltrated now by al-Qaeda. And they just recently have a new organization in there called the Islamic State of Iran. And these are all very radical groups that are infiltrating now and becoming dominant. You also have, on the other side, you have now Hezbollah fighters that have come out of South Lebanon. There are thousands of them trying to prop up Bashar al-Assad. And then you have Russia and Iran both trying to insure that Bashar al-Assad stays in power.
Ultimately there’s no good outcome to this. And one of the reasons is because it doesn’t matter which side wins: the Christians in there are going to be persecuted just as they were in Egypt after Morsi took over.
One of the biggest things that we need to keep our eyes on are the chemical weapons. Assad has a very large stockpile of chemical weapons. We know that one side or the other has actually gotten access to them and used them. We’re not sure, to be honest, which side it was. But those chemical weapons could very easily wind up on the border of Lebanon to be used against Israel; or wind up in, you know, Hamas in the Gaza Strip. So we need to be watching the chemical weapons. That’s my biggest fear is what happens to those chemical weapons, and then what happens to the Christians when this is all resolved?
Ankerberg: How do you see Israel’s stance right now? How do you think Netanyahu is looking at all of this?
Boykin: Netanyahu is watching this very carefully. The reality is Bashar al-Assad, of course, has a deep hatred for Israel because his father lost the Golan Heights to Israel and he wants it back just like his father did. But that said, I think they’re watching this very closely. You know they’ve run a couple of air raids. They’ve run jets in and actually have done some bombing when they knew that there were dangerous things that could potentially wind up in South Lebanon. They’ve actually struck them with jet fighters and bombers. So they’re watching this very carefully. And I will tell you, that when they see an existential threat, the Israelis will take action against it.
Ankerberg: Kamal, you know, when I read your book, “The Blood of Lambs,” this reads like a James Bond novel. And what we’re going to talk about right now is the part you talk about in Syria that you played. The Muslim Brotherhood sends you to Libya. And you are so good with explosives by the age of 14 you are training international terrorists. And when you came back, the Brotherhood said, “Look, we need you. There’s an opportunity to buy or steal some weapons from Syria and bring them into Afghanistan to help the mujahadeen to fight the Soviet Union. And you volunteered for this job, okay. And you got a Saudi sheikh, first of all, to give you $700,000 to buy these rockets so you could use them against the Soviet Union, okay. You get back and Abu Jihad basically tells you, hey, you know what? We don’t like the Syrians that much; let’s just steal it from them. And so you went to Saddam Hussein’s intelligence guys and they gave you the information of how you could get in there, how you could bribe certain people, and how could steal those. Tell us the story.
Kamal Saleem: You know, in the Middle East there’s so much segregation between Sunni and Shia. And in the civil war that took place in Lebanon it was radicalized by Syria and by the PLO. The PLO led it and Syria finished it. Syria took the side of Hezbollah and empowered Hezbollah. And anytime the Sunnis become strong the Syrian military bombed the Sunnis. So we saw hundreds of thousands of Sunnis being butchered, young women, children, older men, because most of the young men were at the forefront fighting. And so we had that, you know, sour taste against Syria. And now we want to get even with Syria all alone. After all, they are empowering the Hezbollah, the Shia. So with this we went to battle with them for the opportune time so we can destroy them. When we win the battle we can turn against them and kill them. This is always the plan in an Islamic world.
So with this, what happened is, when this came about and we did, the Saudi sheikh gave the money, we know that these rockets, SA M-7, the heat-seeking missiles, you know what Russian are killing innocent people in Afghanistan. And the only way we can stop them are by the heat-seeking missiles. So, when Abu Jihad looked this he said we can help here, you know, get you all this weaponology, and get it moved out. So Saddam Hussein, being Sunni Baath, and Hafez Assad, being Baath Shia, what happened, Saddam Hussein give us the power and give us all the technology and all that we need to go and infiltrate. And we had Muslim Brotherhood inside the military right there in Aleppo. This is where brother Tom was talking about, how they murdered these people in that city, in Aleppo.
So what happened is, we have stocked weapons over there and we went over there and the Muslim Brotherhood over there started killing the other soldiers. And we went and we attacked from outside; they attacked from inside. And it was slaughter and we took over 300 rockets. And we moved into, we crossed to Iraq and Iraq took us into the sheikh boat, which is, he is an Emir, which is a prince in a royal Saudi, you know, family. He took those rockets all the way to Pakistan, from Pakistan we went to Kandahar, from Kandahar we went to Tora Bora. And this is where we’re training the people how to shoot these rockets.
Ankerberg: I thought it fascinating that when you got into this cave, when you finally went over the mountains, you finally tied these things on donkeys and mules and took them way up in the mountain; you were freezing to death going over these mountains. And you came to a cave. You look into this cave and there’s what, 200 mujahadeen right there. But you’ve got six people that are Special Forces. And now the Americans that you hate are over there, and they’re supposed to be the advisors helping you. What’d you think?
Saleem: It was, you know, the first report that I wrote to the Saudi government I said we’re going to lose this war. I said America has committed their finances, their weaponology, their children, their authority in their government, to save the Muslims. We’re going to, the Christians, the Crusaders, are going win this war for the Muslim one more time just like Kuwait, like Iraq, like all those places. We will not win this war, because the American has committed. And so when I encountered these men, they were men of character. Their yes was yes and their no was no. When these men, just like General Jerry Boykin, they stood there and held hands and they prayed together. They kneeled before their God and they went before their God. It scared me, because they had an authority. And they were, you know, they were not afraid. I feared, as strong as we were, I feared them, because they have something we could not understand over them, that’s greater than all of us. I thought the seven of them, they can take everybody else out. And this is General Jerry Boykin. He was chasing after me. And if he found me he would have killed me. And if I found him I would have killed him too.
But Jesus Christ over there, over, you know, the Christian soldiers, is so apparent. And when I met with Abu Fox, he talked to me just like General Jerry. He said, you’re not one of those. You have a story. He said we have more for you in our nation. We can use you. He asked me to cross over. I felt my spirit leap. I wanted to do it, but I know my comrades would kill me right on the spot. And so I moved to the other side of the cave fearing what would take place.
Ankerberg: Alright, we’re going to take a break. When we come back what I find it interesting is what you said is, here’s a guy that was hunting you down, and you’re a guy that was hunting him down. And now you’re sitting here on the stage and you’re brothers in Christ.
Ankerberg: Alright, we’re going to finish this story of what you did with those rockets and some other interesting things you found out about the Americans, and how you were led finally to come to America. We’re going to take a break, we’ll come right back. Stick with us.
Ankerberg: Alright, we’re back. We’re talking with General Jerry Boykin; we’re talking with Tom Doyle and Kamal Saleem. Pick up the story again. You are with Special Forces in a cave in Afghanistan, and you’re about ready to fire rockets at the Soviet Union and their military forces, 100,000 soldiers. You came up with a plan, and you thought you were going to die. And you were willing to die for your plan to do that job. And the American forces said, “No. We’ll tell you what. We can kill them off and we can all go home.” Tell me about that.
Saleem: It was really, you know, that brings so much into my heart, you know. Abu Fox was, you know, at that night I was preaching to the Muslims, you know, that we can do it. You know god, Allah, commended us to die, you know. And this is require martyrism. So therefore, I was going to go and just literally go and see where those choppers are and just plan something and shoot them down, and the Sukhoi, which is the bombers. And so therefore, as we’re planning this, Abu Fox came. He said, “Now, take it easy people. We don’t have to do this. There is an easy method. We have radar. We’ll tell you when they’re coming. And before they come we will guide you through a ravine down in the valley.”
So they knew that the choppers are coming and they let us in ahead of time and we went all the way down to the ravine and we embedded ourself over there. And I remember shooting the first SA M-7 as the chopper was coming to the scope. They send the two choppers, they scope and then they send the bombers. And as they’re coming, you know, and they gave the order, they gave us the technology. They gave us the weapon. They gave us the understanding. They said now. And we shot that bomber down and mujahadeen went crazy. “Allahu Akbar.” But if it was not for Jesus, the God of America that led us over there and protected us, we would not have that victory.
America has suffered violence for the Muslims. Throughout history you see graveyards in Islamic countries that says “we came, we fought to set the captive free. And we set you free today.” And America, to me, you know, we, you cannot defeat somebody who is fighting for you. That love is unconditional. And America has not just given their monies, but they gave their life for Islam time and time again.
Ankerberg: What countries? What countries?
Saleem: Saudi Arabia, they saved Saudi Arabia from Turkey historically. Benghazi, you know, the Libyan, time after time. They did it for Turkey in the past. They did it you know, for several countries throughout the Middle East and Africa. You see the American people went over there. General Jerry went and fought for the Muslims, you know. He was fighting you know against the radical for the peace and poor, you know.
Boykin: The Balkans.
Saleem: And the Balkans, yes.
Boykin: We separated the Balkans so that it would protect the Muslims and we’ve saved Kuwait. And in doing so saved Saudi Arabia and probably the rest of the Middle East.
Ankerberg: And Iraq.
Saleem: And Iraq.
Ankerberg: One of the things you wrote in the book that I’ve never heard anybody say was that a lot of people give so much credit to those strong, willful fighters, the Afghanistans, the mujahadeen. And they were the ones that defeated the Soviet Union. You said it’s not true.
Saleem: That’s absolutely true. The mujahadeen did not win anything, because the mujahadeen, they ride on a mule and they have an AK-47 and they have a RPG. But the American are guiding them with their tanks, with their heat-seeking missiles, with their radar, with their power. And the soldier, American soldier dressed like mujahadeen, on million of occasions. And they went out to the battle to fight with the mujahadeen so the mujahadeen can have the strength to fight back.
Ankerberg: Abu Fox, when everything was said and done, and you were victorious there in Afghanistan, said you ought to come to America. Again, tell us what you felt.
Saleem: It was amazing. I was in Arizona. I was speaking at a rally. And this man came to me with blue eyes, red mustache. And he said we must, you know, have met at one place or another. He said, but I just want you to know, I’m Mr. Blue Eyes; you know, we met in Tora Bora. And he turned around and he said welcome home, and turned around and walked away. That changed my life. That man loved me and watched over me. And this man over there, he saw through me that his character saw inside my heart that I’m the man that I’m called for this, you know, to speak about the truth. And if it was the seeding that he did to my heart I don’t think I would start crossing over, even when I came to destroy this nation I knew there was seed of….
Ankerberg: Yeah, and we’re going to get to that in the programs coming up. But as we close here I want to go back to Syria for a moment and the secret police and what Christians there have experienced under the secret police. You’ve got a fascinating story of Jesus appearing to a Syrian man. Tell me about this story. It got him in trouble because he became a Christian and started leading a church. Tell me this story.
Doyle: His name is Adel. He lives in Syria. He’s from Damascus, the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world. And he starts to have Jesus dreams. He’s from a family of Muslims, long line, hundreds of years. And he starts to have Jesus dreams, not just one, not just two, but he eventually has 28 nights in a row of Jesus dreams. And, John, as he tells the story, he said, “I would go to bed early because I could not wait for another dream to come. I’d never felt this. I’d never felt so much love, so much concern for me,” as he would have these conversations with Jesus.
Well, finally he meets some believers and they lead him to faith in Christ with a copy of God’s Word. And that happens with about 95% of Muslims that have dreams. Someone eventually explains it to them from the Bible and they come to embrace Jesus. So he’s living his life. He’s discipled. He’s growing. He’s working in the underground church, but he’s continually brought in for questioning. The secret police is all over him. And in fact, they always say in Syria, if you think you’re being followed by the secret police you are. Wherever you go they’re on you. And they bring him in routinely. Some months he would be in 30 days in a row. Every single day they’d take him in for the day. They just tried to disrupt the activities.
And so he’s just sharing his faith. They’re asking things like are you baptizing Muslims? He says, “We don’t baptize Muslims. I promise you, only Christians. We’re not baptizing Muslims.” A little smile there. And it ends up that one day he’s on the street. And someone that follows him, that he sees all the time; he had a newspaper with the suit, smoking a cigarette, gets up very close to him and he thinks, okay, I’m going in for questioning again. And Mohammad walks up to Adel and says, “Do you think you could explain something to me?” And again, he thinks he’s going to be taken in. He said, “Well, what’s your question. And he says, “I’m having dreams about Jesus. Why do you think that is?” And Adel, of course, is just shocked. This is someone that’s been assigned to tail him. He sees him on a daily basis. This guy is responsible for several of the believers going in for questioning, some are in jai; most of them have been beaten. And he starts to have conversations with him. They have some coffee. It comes that he’s able to lead him to faith in Christ, the secret police that’s been assigned to follow him.
But it even gets better. He takes him to the underground church that he pastors one night. In the middle of the night Adel takes Mohammad, the secret police. As soon as he walks in, John, you can just see the believers pull back. They don’t even want to look at him. He’s one of the reasons that they’ve had so much misery in their life, with loved ones going to prison and being questioned over and over. And Adel says, “I just have a little announcement to make. Mohammad’s been seeing Jesus night after night and he started to ask me questions. And yes, he works for the secret police, but I want you to know he’s a new brother in Christ.” And there was just shock for a few seconds. And after that they just jumped on him. They just gave him the biggest group hug and just told him how much they loved him. They were so thankful for what Jesus had done in his life. And, I mean, this is the guy that has just been horrible to them.
And he stopped and he said, “I’m so sorry for all the pain that I’ve caused you. But I know that Jesus is the way. Pray for me. Pray for my family.” And the power, Adel says, in that prayer meeting, of the secret police being reconciled with the persecuted underground church, was only something that Jesus could do. Really, I mean, we cannot expect the UN to pull this off, right? This is only a Jesus thing working in the midst of these difficult areas. That’s the power of the gospel, His love for us, His love for Muslims, His desire to reach everyone on the planet, even the secret police.
Ankerberg: Great story. And if you’re having dreams of Jesus anyplace in the world right now, you’re fascinated with this because you want to know why. We’re going to talk more about, why is Jesus showing up in your dreams. What is He calling you to? And He’s calling you to Himself, into this loving relationship with Him that you can actually experience. And yeah, there’s danger fraught with it in a lot of countries around the world, but it’s worth it. I mean, that’s the bottom line. You’ll have peace no matter what you experience. And you don’t know what you will; that’s up to God. But you can have this relationship and He’s calling you to Himself.
Now, next week we’re going to take you into what’s happening here in America; because, Kamal, you were sent by the Brotherhood to infiltrate here in American and you found it very easy to do that. And we want to talk about what happened, what you did, how successful they are. And General Boykin knows from the FBI files that were found in 2004 in Annandale, Virginia, what the plans were, the goals were, that were outlined by the Muslim Brotherhood for our country. And it’s absolutely fascinating stuff. I hope you’ll join us then.