Helping Muslims Grow After Coming to Christ
|By: Tom Doyle, Kamal Saleem, General William Boykin; ©2013|
|In our second program you will hear stories about Muslims coming to Christ in Saudi Arabia, the very heart of Islam. Since Bibles and Christian literature are forbidden in Saudi Arabia, how is it possible for people who meet Jesus through dreams to learn more about Jesus afterwards? How does the underground church operate and grow?|
Helping Muslims Grow After Coming to Christ
John Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. We have three fascinating guests. You’ve already heard me introduce them. But you’ve got General Jerry Boykin, and you got Kamal Saleem, you’ve got Tom Doyle. And, Tom, again, I want to start with you in opening this segment. I’m going to ask you in a moment to take us to the heart of Islam which is Saudi Arabia. But before we do, God is doing some amazing things in the world that very few people know about. As you’ve traveled through the Middle East and you’ve been there for the last 18 years, tell me what you’ve found out, and what is God doing?
Tom Doyle: You know, I think the amazing thing is, I read the New Testament, Jesus, His heart went out to those that maybe were marginalized. You look at Matthew [who] was a tax collector. That was not a good profession in the New Testament; actually, not a great one now. But also, the woman at the well and the man born blind, and those that were kind of just pushed aside. And I think there’s a feeling around the world today that because people watching the news, and because of the realities of fundamentalist Islam, that many people either are afraid of Muslims or might even hate them. And that’s where Jesus comes in; because His heart is that no one should perish, but all should come to a knowledge of the truth. So He is so motivated to make sure that every person, every man, woman and child, gets a fair shot at hearing the gospel.
But what about the countries like Saudi Arabia where there’s no Bibles, no religious materials allowed, no Christian television, nothing is supposedly allowed there? What’s going to happen? He is honoring Muslims by appearing to them. The god of Islam is silent and they’re crying out to them. But for Muslims watching today we want you to know first off, the God of the Bible Jehovah has a message for you and He’s ready to speak to you.
Ankerberg: Yeah, we have folks in Saudi Arabia that tell us they’re watching secretly, people in Tehran, Iran. We’ve got people in Egypt and other parts of the Muslim world. And let’s go to Saudi Arabia, because I’m fascinated with this thing that Bibles are forbidden; Christian literature is outlawed; and the fact is, yet, you’ve found out that God is calling people to Himself there. Jesus is appearing to them in dreams and calling them to Himself in some very fascinating ways, and starting Bible studies. How do they get the Bibles? This whole thing; give us a story that you know for sure.
Doyle: Well, you know there’s a, a young woman named Aisha and Aisha’s in a practicing Muslim family. She went and made the hajj, and while she was there she started to have dreams. She started to have an encounter with Jesus. We’re hearing that, John, from Muslims that went and made the hajj. One man just recently in the West Bank said as he was going around the kaaba stone, he saw Jesus sitting on the kaaba stone with a message for him that he was on the wrong path. And so Aisha goes and she wants to connect with God. But during her time there she is having Jesus dreams, Jesus encounters. She doesn’t say anything to anyone. She’s certainly afraid. What does this mean? But she sees a man in a white robe that says, “Come, follow Me.”
Well, months later she’s at a cousin’s house in Jordan. And as they’re watching television her cousin starts to flip the channels, and she stops on one and there’s an Egyptian preacher. And the first words out of his mouth is, he says, “Some of you are having dreams about Jesus. He has a message for you. He is honoring you. He wants to speak to you, and you need to listen.” And she’s just shocked that this happened. Well, she didn’t know it, but her cousin Reem had been having dreams about Jesus and privately became a follower of Jesus, a Muslim background believer. And a conversation started when Aisha just confessed, “I’m having dreams. I’m having visitations. I don’t know what to do.” And they had time together over the week and Reem leads her cousin Aisha to faith in Christ.
She’s ready to go back to Saudi Arabia, but they decided they needed to do something to help spread this message of love that is so absent in their culture. They took and they found small New Testaments and they sewed them into the hem of her hijab. And she got into Saudi Arabia and was able to deliver Bibles to some underground believers in the capital city of Mecca. And privately, in the middle of the night, they are reading the New Testament, worshiping Jesus quietly.
See, Jesus said that “upon this rock I will build My church and the gates of hell will not be able to stand.” In other words, the gospel will bust through. Nothing can stop it. No man, no religion, no country, no empire. And Jesus is taking the message of salvation and His bold love for Muslims and the rest of the world right into the spiritual capital of Islam in Mecca.
Ankerberg: Yeah, we’ve got more stories that he’s going to relate to you, but let’s go to Kamal. Kamal, you came out of the world of terrorism. At the age of four your mother starts telling you stories out of the Qur’an, and you wanted to become a warrior, you wanted to kill the infidels. At seven you were chased into a mosque and the Muslim Brotherhood befriends you. Tell me about some of your friends that you found in the Muslim Brotherhood. One of them taught you how to shoot an AK-47, your first bullets flew out of the gun and Abu Jihad, or also known as Khalil al-Wazir, was Yasser Arafat’s right hand man and head of the military arm of PLO. He’s the one that befriended you right from the beginning and trained you. And I want to know, what were you trained, even at seven years of age, what were you taught in your mind?
Kamal Saleem: It’s amazing. In that world they know that children are just like sponge, they will take anything into their spirit man. And we were not loved. In Islam we don’t have unconditional love. Over there everything is conditional. When I met him, Khalil, and he took me in and he became like a father to me, and he protected me from everyone else. Although I was learning, we were learning the 50 caliber, we were mixing TNT explosive, making dynamite from scratch. You know, we were learning how to kill, how to shoot, how to detonate, how to disable the military forces, airplane, cars, tanks. We were learning all kind of things, even to the point to give our life. And we were taught that when you give your life Allah will bless you with open heaven, with 72 virgins, and with every virgin, he will give you 72 virgins. So when you die for the sake of Allah, you go into a place, the land of plenty, and that’s in outer space and it’s called Paradise. You know, so this is what we were taught over there. We were giving our life for something that it doesn’t even have, you know, it doesn’t have density to it, you know, but we were kids.
Ankerberg: When you were on some of those missions, all of a sudden people were firing real bullets back at you, and they were slaughtering a lot of the friends that went with you. And when you came back into town carrying some of those dead bodies with you, you were still hailed as a hero, but what were you thinking in your own mind? Why did you stay in this thing when you realized from that point on you could die almost any day?
Saleem: You know, when I went over there I was, I thought we are chosen by Allah and we are a hero, and we’re going to die and we’re going to see him. But when I realized that, you know, my family, you know, all my friends, they are dying for nothing, you know. And then I was questioning everything. Is Islam is true, is the god of Islam most power or the enemy, you know, the Jews and the Christians? I start seeing it, deduce, and when I was in the battle, even this man appear out of nowhere, and he took me down. He hid me behind a rock until everything slowed down and then I took Mohamed and ran in. But when I came out of this I felt that my life is, I felt like I’m a loser. I felt, you know, oppression, depression and a lie came upon me that we are destined for nothing. And you know, all this lie that we’ve been buying, you know, it has no value, spiritually or physically. We don’t know where we’re going.
Ankerberg: But you stayed in it.
Saleem: Stayed in it, because I have no other place. They were my family. And this is the place where you cannot leave. If you leave you’re dead.
Ankerberg: Alright, you were among the PLO, among Fatah. You were trained in the camps and we’re going to talk next week about how the Brotherhood sent you down to Libya, under Muammar Gaddafi to train international terrorists, and you did, because you became an explosives expert. What I want to ask you, and I want to come to the General next, we are being told by our leadership here in America that radical Islam is on the decline. From your perspective what, do you think that’s true or false?
Saleem: It’s on the contrary, it’s not. See what’s happened in Boston. See what’s happened in Fort Hood. See what’s happened you know, in New York bomber. All these men are recruited in mosques here, mosques here in the United States of America, and radicalized to go to the forefront. Islam right now believe they are in the last days. This is where everybody will become Muslim, so therefore the Muslim Brotherhood is on the acceleration.
Ankerberg: Yeah, we’re going to take a break because we’re out of time right here. But when we come back, General, I’m going to ask you about some of the headlines. If you just take five minutes and go to the Internet, the kinds of headlines we see about radical Islam, and I’m going to ask you, is it growing or is it being dissipated? And we’ll talk about that when we come right back. Stick with us.
Ankerberg: Alright, we’re back. We’re talking with three fascinating guests, Tom Doyle, Kamal Saleem and General Boykin. General, you’re a three-star general, former commander of Delta Force, you became Commanding General of all US Special Army Forces around the world, served at the Central Intelligence Agency in clandestine missions, four years you were a Deputy Under Secretary of Defense. When I ask you this question about radical Islam, you’re the one that knows. Our government today is telling us that al-Qaeda, radical Islam has dissipated. It’s been eradicated. Yet, I took five minutes and looked at the Internet headlines, and I saw Turkey and Europe—problem with radical Islam; stemming the tide of radical Islam in India; radical Islam spreading in Siberia; radical Islam’s surging in the Balkan; Iran’s Rouhani caught on film, “I advanced nukes through deception;” 18 U.S. embassies in Muslim world, reopen amid still murky threats. In Egypt with all the turmoil, Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi, one of the most influential Islamic clerics in the world, head of the International Union of Muslim Scholars and spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, has just called on all the Muslims of the world to come and wage jihad with their lives in Egypt to return the Muslim Brotherhood to power. My question: is radical Islam being eradicated, or is it growing, in your estimation?
General Boykin: No, John, right after 9/11 the estimates were that the radicals within Islam was about 10% of 1.5 billion. Today that estimate runs between 15 and 20%. So the data shows that it is on the rise. It is not declining. Now, that is largely due to the success of the Arab Spring in terms of bringing the Muslim Brotherhood into power in places like Egypt and Libya and Tunisia and soon in Syria most likely. And that is because the West—read that as Western Europe and the United State—have ignored the threat, have been unwilling to deal with it; and as a result of that the propaganda machine of the Islamists, of those radicals that call for jihad and Sharia, they’ve been encouraged and they’ve used that as propaganda to, in fact, recruit more people to the jihadist cause. It is growing; it is not declining.
Ankerberg: Tom, in one of the books that you wrote you talk about what you saw in the Gaza Strip area. Tell me about that.
Doyle: Yeah, one of the universities in the Gaza Strip, it was time to sign up for classes and there were two lines that were visible that day. One was the line to register for college. Another was to sign up to be involved in jihad. They were giving classes on suicide bombing and how to stand up to Israel. The line was much longer for the radicals, those that wanted to do jihad rather than complete their college education.
Ankerberg: Kamal, what did you want to say about this?
Saleem: You know the Qur’an states, it says, “[Arabic],” those who are died in martyrism, that they are alive and prospering before Allah. So therefore, the call for jihad is greater than education in the Middle East.
Ankerberg: Kamal, tell me some of the organizations that you were a part of, terrorist organizations in the Middle East, and tell me then about when you were sent to the United States by the Brotherhood to do cultural jihad. What was that all about? Kind of define terms for us.
Saleem: In the Muslim world whether you are al-Qaeda or Muslim Brotherhood, both of them have the radical ideology and both of them operate under two administrations: [Arabic] the house of war and the house of peace. And so therefore, what happened, whether you are fighting radically or silently, you are dealing with the same issues. But both of them are going about it in two different ways. We came to the United States, I was sent to the United States of America for the grand jihad. The grand jihad is to finalize. Because America is the great Satan and the power that policing Islam, so therefore we knew that if we come to the United States and start turning the world upside down, recruiting their people and turning their own people against them and embracing Islam, we can subjugate this nation to Islam. And by repopulating the nation and start becoming, you know, popular and start choosing our leadership so we can change the culture from within. We were sent with this agenda to infiltrate the very fiber of the United States of America.
Ankerberg: Yeah, so just because those folks say we’re going to use cultural or civilizational jihad didn’t mean they were opposed to using weapons or explosives, but it was the methodology that was best to be used for this particular spot right now. Is that correct?
Saleem: Correct. Al-Qaradawi, you spoke about him. When he met with the American imams, he declared fatwa for them. Fatwa is a release of Sharia, you know, it’s a law to do something or not to do. And in the fatwa he said now he is instilling the doctrines called [Arabic], which is the silent cancer that move into society without society knowing what’s happening. Saying that is, one, to declare Sharia on America fatwa and without allowing the American to know what Sharia is. Because if they know what Sharia Law is they would not let it happen. So therefore what happen is the [Arabic] if we talk about the good things what Islam did and what’s going to do to this nation, but we do not talk about the ugly truth. We only talk about the beautiful truth of Islam. So therefore, but when we go into the very fiber, into your school system as an MSA, Muslim Student Association, this is our great strength of America, turning the American student against America. If you take seven students, you know, five students, you know, falls out of seven, that they are walking out without God, statistically. So therefore what we’re seeing is that’s one area.
The other area is the jail system. We came to infiltrate the jail system because we knew if we take those broken one, those that they’re injured, we can turn them into beasts against this nation and therefore we can populate this nation with segregation and causing the culture to break open. We wanted to create a great wedge in the culture and create a clash between the two. The weaker it become, Islam can introduce something powerful and that is the glory of Islam as a solution. So…
Ankerberg: Yeah. Let me interrupt you. You are very good at this and in a program up ahead we’re going to talk about how easy it was for you to radicalize people here in America. And when people hear that story, they’re going to understand. General, our society is at risk, and yet our country is sleeping and our leadership is denying some of the facts that are on the table. What would you say about that?
Boykin: Well, you’re absolutely right and I think that the Holy Land Foundation trial in 2008 clearly demonstrated that the majority of the major Muslim organizations in America are front groups for the Muslim Brotherhood. Now this administration has denied that the Muslim Brotherhood even exists in America until Mohamed Morsi took over as president of Egypt and explained that both he and his wife joined the Muslim Brotherhood while they were in the universities here in America. So it’s undeniable now that Muslim Brotherhood is here. And the real problem is that nobody in the administration, not only this administration, but the previous administration, is willing to, first of all, acknowledge that the Muslim Brotherhood is a very powerful entity here, but also is unwilling to deal with the realities and the consequences of the Muslim Brotherhood being able to do what they do.
Ankerberg: Tom, let’s end on another note. We’ve got this chaos in our country and we’ve got the chaos going around the world, and Islam, radical Islam, is on the rise. In spite of that God loves everybody and is calling even some of those folks like Kamal to Himself, alright. But you’ve got a powerful story of a lady in Saudi Arabia by the name of Fatima and tell us that story.
Doyle: You know Fatima, when we look back over the course of her life, she really looks like someone that you would read about in Hebrews 11, the hall of faith. What a woman of God! She grew up in the religion of Islam, was not satisfied, could not connect with God. And in her 20s she has a job; she’s finished college; and she starts to search on the Internet and she comes across some Christian sites and starts to hear more about Jesus. She’s fascinated about this phenomenon of Muslims having dreams about Jesus. She’s even praying that she would have one, but she’s dialoguing on the Internet back and forth with people that have experienced Jesus, that have fallen in love with Him, have committed their lives to Him and are willing to die for Him. And over time she realizes the truth as she reads the Word of God, pieces of it, on the Internet: “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.” It was powerful in Fatima’s life. She comes to faith in Christ and is being discipled on the Internet.
Now, John, she was never able to attend a local church, but yet she grew in her faith with her spiritual family that she connected with around the world. She even sent out blogs under different names.
Meanwhile she has a brother that works for the secret police. She lives in a very, very strong fundamental city in Saudi Arabia. And often times, as happens with Muslims that come to faith in Christ, something tips off their family. Something gives them away. And it was her countenance. See, the fruit of the Spirit comes in. Paul says in Ephesians that the Spirit comes in at salvation, and that love, joy and peace was seen on her expression. Her brother didn’t like it, started to investigate in her computer when she was gone at work one day, and found out several Christian sites. And when she came home for dinner that night he confronted her, and he said, “Are you a Christian?” And she said, “I’m following Jesus if that’s what you mean.” And he said, “Because you’ve said that, you have two hours. Give me your cell phone. You’re not allowed to call anyone. Go to your room and in two hours I’m going to kill you, and the family will be present.”
She gives the cell phone. She goes to her room. But he didn’t take her computer and she wrote a final poem (see A Martyr’s Final Poem) and sent it out over the Internet. It’s a martyr’s final poem. And what amazes me, John, is this is a woman that had not walked with Jesus that long, but looked at death square in the face and said, “I’m not afraid.” She said, “Your swords, they do not concern me. I’m not afraid because Jesus, my Messiah, is my protector. He’s the Lord of the world.” Two hours later her brother came in, took her out in the street, did terrible things to her, killed her in public view.
And, you know, you look at that life, that short life that she lived for Jesus, and what an impact she made as that poem went literally around the world. And this young little sweet girl that grew up in Islam, that found Jesus, within months of her faith in Christ was ready to die for Him. And she did. This is a hero of our faith. With all that was around her, all the threat, all that she knew would probably eventually take her life, but she walked with Jesus with a passion. She never looked back. That’s what God can do in the life of a Muslim once they’re willing to take the risk to follow Jesus as their Lord and Savior and make the break. And she did; she’s one of these women that you just one day in heaven want to meet, and really hear the full story.
Ankerberg: Next week we’re going to go to Syria where over 100,000 people have already been killed, butchered. And you have been working with some of the refugees. Kamal, you have a special story about Syria. And the General, you know all about what’s going on in Syria. We’re going to get a report from Boots on the Ground, what’s going on. But, folks, those of you that are listening, and maybe God is revealing Himself to you, maybe you’re having dreams of Jesus in the Arab world, we’re going to put all these programs on our website at jashow.org and it’ll be in 50 languages, 50 languages so you can read all of this. And we’ve got over 4,000 articles. So I ask you to go there, if God has been revealing Himself, if Jesus has been showing up to you, go there, we’ll tell you more. And I’ll hope you’ll join us next week. We’re going to hear more about this and how you can come into a relationship with Jesus. Hope you’ll join us next week.