When Muslims Meet Jesus/Program 2
|By: Tom Doyle, Kamal Saleem, General William Boykin; ©2013|
|Kamal Saleem, Tom Doyle, and retired General William Boykin discuss the very real threat of radicalism in the United States, ways Christians can minister to Muslims in the U.S., and inspiring stories of Muslims coming to faith in Jesus.|
How Jesus Can Transform Those Influenced by Radicalism
John Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. We’ve got three fascinating guests for you to listen to today. You’ve already heard me introduce them, but again, we’ve got General Boykin; we’ve got Kamal Saleem; we’ve got Tom Doyle here. And today when we’re talking about what God is doing in the Muslim world, you have a man that has come out of Islamic terrorism. He’s come to our United States to infiltrate our United States; was successful in doing so; knows what is happening here in government and in law and in schools and in the mosques. But somewhere along the line this fellow that was sent by the Muslim Brotherhood to recruit radicals right here in America, God intervened and started to change things around. And, Kamal, you’re here in the United States, what happened?
Kamal Saleem: So I’m working, you know, the universities. I’m working the poor neighborhood. I’m working the jail system to, you know, to create the Nation of Islam thriving on black African Americans, to recruit them to Islam. And now I’m recruiting Muslims, that they are moderate, and they are following us here in the United States of America. And one day I get in a car wreck. And in my car wreck, I have a T-top in my car, I flew out of my car. I was broadsided by an 18-wheeler. And my car just literally broke in half and I flew out of my car and fell upside down on my head, cracked my neck in two places.
And there I cried out to Allah, “Allah, where are you?” Allah and Jehovah God Almighty are not the same God. They are two different gods. You know, one is the true living God who loved the world and gave His Son, and His Son died and gave His blood. And the other one, he said if the whole world is worth [nothing] to him; he destroyed it time and time again. Therefore Muhammad, he brought somebody who was an orphan and brought an orphan spirit. Well, Jesus Christ brought the spirit of adoption of Jesus Christ.
So therefore what happened is, there man came to me and he spoke with his deep southern accent. He said, “Son, we’re going to take care of you and everything’s going to be alright now, you hear?” I said, “Allah, I asked for help. I didn’t ask for a redneck,” you know. And so this man kept smiling and just telling me, you know, he’s going to take care of me. Now the ambulance take me to the hospital, the orthopedic surgeon look at my chart, he said, “Your name is Kamal Saleem. You’re a French citizen. You have no family and no friend, no insurance. You have nothing.” And he smiled the same way and he said, “But, son, we’re going to take care of you,” with his deep southern accent, “and everything’s going to be all right now, you hear.” And I thought it’s a conspiracy. And it was; but it was not by demonic power as I thought. It was by God of heaven and earth.
So therefore I wake up in a hospital the second day and now I have the orthopedic surgeon telling me this same thing. And one day all of them appear, and they start hugging each other and telling each other, “I love you,” and, “I miss seeing you.” I thought, oh my God! They are not just Christians, but they are foofy Christians. They hug, they kiss, they tell each other, “I love you.” This is not right. And now they said, “We’re going to take you home.” I said, “I’m not going home with you. I ain’t going anywhere.” And so with this, it was really scary for me, because I thought they’re going to kill me.
But when I went to the orthopedic surgeon home, all of a sudden they put me in their choicest room. They loved and lavished on me, even to the kids climbing on the bed and welcome me home, “Uncle Kamal.” And I was telling them, “Little monkey, get off the bed. I’m not your uncle.” And they laid a hand on me and they started praying in the name of Jesus Christ.
Ankerberg: Yeah, I love this. You’ve got three little kids, apart from the adults, that are listening to you and they see you banged up in this bed recovering and they say, “Let’s pray for him.”
Saleem: Yes. And I start crying, you know, just, I could not control myself because I was trained to kill, and I knew how to do it, but I could not fight the God of love. How can you fight unconditional love? It’s something so foreign to me that I’m not aware of. How do you know what that is?
Then when I was in their home I started being introduced to their lifestyle and it became the living word, how they lived their lives according to the Bible. And how the husband treated his wife. I was going, wow! My dad would knock my mom, you know, flat on the ground with one punch. My brothers, my sisters, you know, all of them would have the same stories, because in Islam [Arabic], men are in charge of the women. The fuel of hell is made out of women according to the Qur’an. Women are of no value. And here, these people are valuing each other. They’re loving each other equally. And how they treated their children.
And then I found out that these men are belong to an organization called Christian Businessmen organization, and they will come once a week, 60 men will hold hands and pray, and they pray about their issues. But the best part, they start saying, “I heard God spoke to me.” I’m going, “I know god. He never speaks.” But this God spoke. And I saw the relationship. And then the next week they speak about what God did, the victory that He gave them. All of a sudden my eyes started opening and I realized that their God is engaged in their life and they cover it by a cloud of glory. And the presence of God was upon them. It’s so tangible that I start changing. And the end of the night they open a big basket, is says for Kamal Saleem. They forgave my debts in full. Out of their need they gave.
And now I’m not understanding why these people are doing what they’re doing. In everything in Islam is conditional. There’s no love. Allah never loved. You will not find that anywhere in Sharia or Qur’an. Forgiveness, it is not: “If you don’t then I’m sending you to hell.” Grace, all these things are not valid. So now I’m seeing these people who they are and they started having Jewish friend in their home. And I’m going like that’s not right. Can we just kill the Jews and keep the Christian in here? But what I found out that Jesus is Jew and I’m going, “Oh my, Allah! What happened here?”
And so as I’m seeing this I start conforming to their life and I start falling in love with them and I started seeing the true God; that it’s their God who gave them victory, the blessings, everything that American do, it’s not because of what they did, it’s because of what God is doing for them. I realized your God served you, while our god driving us with a whip. Our god driving us like a herd of cattle, but why God is leading you just as a shepherd. And when I saw that my eyes started opening.
And when I started questioning my god and your God I found your God loved the world. When God says “let there be light” He declared Jesus Christ, the emphasis, the love. When our god says, “Oh, I spoke about that later on.” We have no Genesis so we had to point to everything that you all have. And one day they said, “You’re going to go home. You’re feeling better.” I said, “I’m not. Can I stay a couple of more months?” And they said, “No, you’re feeling okay,” and they gave me a brand new key to my new car to replace my old car.
Saleem: And I did not deserve this. And in my previous world, if somebody gave me something, it’s for a purpose, to do something for them. This one was, it’s on the house. And now when I went home I felt defeat for the first time. And when I came to my home I fell on my knees facing the eastern windows and I lift my hand to the heavens and I cried out with a loud voice, “Allah! [Arabic] Allah! My lord and my king. Why have you done such a thing to me? Allah! I’d have died for you every day. The car wreck is nothing. Kill me. This is what I live for. But you put me among Christians. These people have a relationship with their God. He speaks to them and they speak to Him. They hear each other’s voice. They cry for healing, He gives them healing; finances, finances; blessing, blessing. He protects them. Allah, I want to have a relationship with you too. Allah, if you are real, speak to me. I want to hear your voice.”
But Allah didn’t say any word that day. And I thought to myself, I don’t want to go back to this Islamic things because all of a sudden I came to my senses that everything I’ve done for Islam is what Kamal did. It’s not what Islam did. It was a lie. And I said to myself, something came to my mind, clock out. Put the gun in your mouth and finish your story. And before I did this a thought came, and I believe it came from the throne itself. And He said, “Ask Allah if you die today what will happen to you.” So I said to him, “Allah, if I die today and I see your face, and he said, Kamal Saleem, you’re going to hell because you killed yourself, I’m going to say I’d rather live in hell than live with you because you’re a liar and a father of lies because I called upon you and you did not answer. You did not talk to me.” He didn’t answer still. So I started crying. I became the joke in the joke.
And as I came to reach to the gun and put it to my mouth to finish the story, I heard the voice of God. And He called me and He spoke to me like a Father, like a son I was to Him. And He called me three times by name. He said “Kamal, the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims believe in God of Father Abraham. Why don’t you call on the God of Father Abraham and Isaac and Jacob?” I realized that God loves His family and He is very proud of His family. And I was going, “My God.” I fell on my knees and I lifted up my hand to the heaven and I said, “God, the Father of Abraham, if You are real, speak to me. God of Father Abraham, if You are real, I want to know You.” As I said that in my heart and I believed with all and every fiber within me, well, God the Father of Abraham showed up and His name was Yahweh, the Lord is One. In His presence there is fullness of joy. There is power. There is healing. There is love. The angels are about Him. It was an open heaven. They are descending and ascending, you know, all around. And His name was Jesus. He dressed like a Jew. He looked like a Jew. He has holes in His hands and His feet.
And He spoke to me and I understood Him. And I was going like, “My Lord, my Lord. Who are You, my Lord?” And He said, “I am that I am.” I said, “What is that supposed to mean?” I’m the Bedouin. I have no clue. I’m a nomad. What is that supposed to mean? He said, “I am the Alpha, I am the Omega, I’m the alef, I’m the tav. I am everything. I have known you before I formed the foundation of the earth. I have loved you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Rise. Come Kamal, arise. You are My warrior. You are not their warrior.”
As I rose up my neck was intact. My collarbone, my ribs, my knee, everything was perfect. So is my heart and my mind. And I start celebrating and I said, “My Lord, my Lord, I will live and die for You.” He said, “Do not die for Me. I died for you, that you may live.” I said, “Well, Lord, give me a chance, by the skin of their teeth and by their eyelashes I will make them Christian.” I knew right away that He’s Christ. And He said, “The harvest is plentiful. The workers are few. Be an ambassador of Mine.” I could not understand how He can take somebody with my past and create something new, and He said, “You are an ambassador, representative of God.” I celebrated something very special that many Christian refuse, that gift of ambassadorship.
Ankerberg: It’s a fantastic story. And we’re going to take a break. When we come back we’re going to hear some more, so stay with us.
Ankerberg: Hi, we’re back and we’re listening to Kamal Saleem. We’re talking about how a former terrorist, how he came out of the world of terrorism and came into a relationship with the true and living God, the One who loves us, who gave His Son for us, who will answer prayer for us, who’ll be real to us, empower our daily lives, protect us. And I don’t want to change what’s going on here, but I would like to come; Tom, this happened for you too, that you came into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. How did God make this relationship possible, and how did you come into a relationship with Christ?
Tom Doyle: Oh you know, I think probably, John, the most famous verse in the Bible is John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” As Christians we often go to the “that whosoever believeth in Him” and really kind of forget the power of the beginning, that “God so loved the world.” And so whether it’s Kamal’s story—and it’s so riveting about his background—or if it’s someone like myself, that was in religion but didn’t know Jesus, we are amazed at how overpowering, how amazing that love is for each and every one of us. Because the Bible says that we’re not only in darkness, Ephesians 5:8 says, “We are the darkness.” We come opposed to God, and He draws us into the kingdom of His Son. And so that happened for me when I was a senior in high school. And God called us to go into ministry to work in the church, to work with the Middle East, and it’s been an amazing, amazing ride.
Ankerberg: You know guys, we’ve got an American hero on our set with us, and this book, “Never Surrender,” is about our three-star General, William G. Boykin who’s a former commander of Delta Force. Later became Commanding General of all U.S. Special Army Forces around the world, served at the CIA in intelligence. And yet, there was a day, General, when you were trying out for Delta and you were in one of these whole day or two-day marches out in the woods, and you were getting exhausted yourself. And what did you do?
General Boykin: John, I realized that in spite of my athletic abilities—and I was a college football player, went to school on a scholarship—I realized there was a point in which my physical abilities were exhausted. And because I was a believer, and because I had committed my life to Christ, I knew that there was only one source for what I needed. And He clearly made up the difference between what was needed and what I was by giving me the strength to not only complete the course, but to actually come out first on that day that you’re talking about, which was a 40 mile march through the mountains in the middle of the winter. I finished that first, and it was only because of the strength that I got from a sovereign God that is always there, that never leaves us nor forsakes us once we’ve committed our lives to Him.
Ankerberg: What would you say to the soldiers that are listening, those that have come back or those that are overseas listening?
Boykin: What I would say to them is there’s no greater decision in your life. Listen, I grew up in a legalistic environment. That’s why I left the church for a long time, because I couldn’t obey all the rules. But when it finally became very clear to me that it wasn’t about rules, it was about relationship, it was about knowing Christ and committing your life to Him, and that’s the most important decision you’ll make as a soldier, as an American, as a human being, is committing your life to Christ. And I encourage all who see your program to do just that.
Ankerberg: Tom, let me come back to you, because in your book, “Dreams and Visions” —it’s a fantastic book—you talk about what place these experiences of Jesus, Jesus showing up in people’s dreams or even during the day and speaking to people in the Muslim world and saying, “Follow Me.” I want to ask you about these dreams. Do they replace the Bible? Why is God using these dreams? Why are they so important in the Muslim world?
Doyle: Great question. You know, in the Bible over 200 times people had dreams and visions. And in the area of the Middle East it was seen as a way that God could connect with the people. Today in Islam a majority worldwide of adults do not read. And so in some areas getting them a Bible, they wouldn’t be able to read it anyway. And so typically what happens is, it doesn’t replace the Bible whatsoever. But Muslims, whether they’re practicing or not, have a couple of objections to keep them from even considering the claims of Christ. One is they believe that we worship three gods. A second one is that they believe the Bible is corrupted. But once they have a dream of Jesus and sense His love and His concern for them, those false assumptions just seem to move to the side. And they’re able to connect with Jesus when it comes to opening a Bible, or a friend sharing with them, or seeing something on television, to where before they would have just passed it off, but now they sense there’s something special—“He cares for me. There is love. I’ve never felt this. He’s wanting a relationship.”
And so, no, it doesn’t replace the Bible whatsoever. In fact, we always say this, no one goes to bed a Muslim, has a dream about Jesus and wakes up a Christian. It doesn’t happen that way. What happens is it just starts to move the objections to the side and they’re able to have a clear path toward the cross of Christ. And along the way He’ll often bring a Bible, a believer, that can explain it to them, so that they truly can know what they’ve been experiencing.
Ankerberg: For the person that’s had dreams and is watching this program right now and is wondering, “What’s the next step? Jesus is saying follow Me, you know, who is He? What do I do?” What would you say to them?
Doyle: I would say just open your heart to Him. He is honoring you. The Bible says that all of us have sinned. We have all brought shame on ourselves and our family because of our personal sin. Nobody’s perfect; except Jesus lived a perfect life. And so now He is wanting to honor you, wanting to come to you and bring eternal life. Just open your heart to Him; reach out and pray, “Lord, please forgive me. Come into my life. Fill my heart. Save me from my sins.” Just pray that prayer earnestly. It’s just a few things that He wants to hear from you. And He will bring what’s needed to you, a Bible, a Christian that can really explain your faith, that can follow you up. He’s waiting and His offer is for you.
Ankerberg: Kamal, we’re going into 206 nations right now and our words are going to be translated into 50 languages of the world. I want you to talk to two people, Muslims in America and Muslims overseas. What do you want them to know about Jesus?
Saleem: The word in the Qur’an says [Arabic] that’s, there’s a book in the Qur’an, it says the stories, which is the dreams and visions that they place through all the prophets. God’s still in the business appearing to the people. Why? Because God in the last days He said He will pour out His Spirit on all, everybody. And so therefore He’s coming for all those who want Him He will come to them. But according to the Qur’an, the Qur’an itself says Jesus Christ is the only prophet that’s born out of virgin birth. Jesus Christ is the only One came by the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God came and impregnated Mary. And then the Qur’an says as well, it says He’s the only One what so called the Spirit of God, and the one is lifted up to heaven and He’s the only one who will judge humanity with God. Now the Qur’an made it clear over there, you know, that Jesus Christ is the answer, you know. Now you’ve tried everything in your life. You’ve seen everything in your life. Now this is the time to ask yourself, I’ve got nothing to lose. Lord Jesus, if You are real speak to me. I want to know You. So Christianity is all about relationship with God. It is having a relationship with your Creator who created you beautiful like Him. And so therefore He want to introduce you to Himself. And this is the time to say, “Lord Jesus, I want to know You. If You are real, speak to me.”
Ankerberg: Those of you that are listening, one Bible verse I want you to know, Tom’s already said, “For God so loved the world,” that includes you, “that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes,” not works, but believes, “in Him, shall not perish, but you will have eternal life.” And it’ll start the moment you put your trust in this Jesus and say show me the next steps. I’m going to follow You. Now, folks, we’ve got some more next week that we’re going to talk about, so I hope that you’ll join us then.